SawStop in NY Times

[smorgasbord]

So I did some more digging, mostly here:https://www.govinfo.gov/content/pkg/FR-2011-10-11/pdf/2011-26171.pdf

Turns out the Riving Knife requirement is in UL 987. That document costs hundreds of dollars. But, the document I linked above describes UL 987 as a "voluntary standard for table saws" after describing table saws in 3 categories: Bench Saws, Contractor Saws, and Cabinet Saws. Prices quoted ranged from $100 for the cheapest bench saws to $3,000 for cabinet saws.

The original requirement for table saw guarding specified a complete guard that consisted of a hood, a spreader, and some type of antikickback device. The requirement further specified that the guard hood completely enclose the sides and top portion of the saw blade above the table and that the guard automatically adjust to the thickness of the workpiece. A blade guard that met this requirement was typically a hinged, rectangular piece of clear plastic.
The sixth edition of UL 987, published in January 2005, added design and performance requirements for a riving knife and performance requirements for anti-kickback devices. This revision essentially required new table saws to employ a permanent riving knife that was adjustable for all table saw operations. The requirement also allowed for riving knife/spreader combination units, where the riving knife could be used as the attachment point for a blade guard during through cuts. The effective date for the riving knife requirement is January 31, 2014, for currently listed products, and January 31, 2008, for new products submitted for listing to the UL standard.
The current edition, the seventh edition of UL 987, published in November 2007, expanded the table saw guarding requirements to include descriptions of a new modular blade guard design developed by a joint venture of the leading table saw manufacturers. The revised standard specified that the blade guard shall consist not of a hood, but of a topbarrier guarding element and two sidebarrier guarding elements. The new modular guard design was intended to be an improvement over traditional hood guard designs by providing better visibility, being easier to remove and install, and incorporating a permanent riving knife design. The revised standard also specified detailed design and performance requirements for the modular blade guard, riving knife, and anti-kickback device(s). The effective date for the new requirements was January 31, 2010

and then why this is all happening:

In addition, of the 66,900 table saw operator blade contact injuries in 2007 and 2008, approximately 20,700 (30.9%) of the injuries occurred on table saws where the blade guard was in use. The current voluntary standard for table saws does not appear to address those types of injuries.

I find the 30.9% of injuries occurring with blade guard in use statistic questionable. I'd guess people are just stating that when they go to the ER, especially since not using a guard might get you fired. The document does talk about OSHA enforcement making things like the UL standard a requirement, not voluntary - and points out that home/amateurs don't have OSHA requirements.

It's interesting that the current riving knife inclusion is not required by law, but is effectively required as no manufacturer wants to get sued for injuries, which they'd lose if they didn't follow the UL "standard." Similarly, it appears the saw manufacturers got together to create a blade guard design that they all use, again probably for legal reasons since there wouldn't be suits of one company's blade guard being safer than another.

It would be interesting to see the CPSC make flesh sensing a requirement without also making current voluntary things requirements.

 

[Crazyraceguy]

After watching and thinking about it:
1) I think he's right that the CPSC will pass flesh-sensing technology requirement regulations.
2) It is interesting that in the past, the EU has led safety regulations, such as requiring riving knives and the more recent dado stack requirements (that only just now are available). So this would be a change in the historical order of things.
3) I think he's wrong that the CPSC will ban sales of used tablesaws. Radial arm saws are still legally sold, as are older tablesaws without riving knives.
4) I think he's right that existing compact tablesaws will go up in value. A DeWalt DWE7485 compact tablesaw costs about $375 today. Adding the SawStop tech will add $300 easily. All of these under $400 saws will probably go away. The DeWalt DWE7491 costs $550. It's a larger saw and may survive, but again will be more expensive. Maybe I should buy a bunch of these saws and keep them in unopened boxes to sell for $100 more apiece when the law passes?  /jk
5) A possible side consequence of the cheap compact tablesaws going away is that track saws will become even more popular. Makita is probably going to sell a ton of their bang for the buck track saws.

1) Yes, and probably with the usual government short-sightedness
2) The dado stack thing is about the EU regulations regarding stopping the blade quickly enough.
Riving knives (just like the older splitters) are removable. The government can force the manufacturers to include them, but they can't keep the end user from it (except on job sites)
3)The CSPS can't stop the private sales of anything. No one has that kind of authority.
4)It will drive up the prices of all power saws. The used ones, because they are exempt. The new ones, because of the tech. (compact or full-size) It will likely drive up track saws, because they are an alternative, maybe even regular circular saws too.
5) ^^^
The real cost will get pushed on commercial entities. Cabinet shops and construction companies will be forced to comply. Even your local "shared-shop" club type places will have to conform, because of the liability.
It's probably more likely that insurance companies will have more power over this than anyone, which might even kill those older saws completely? "Get injured using a non-compliant saw.....no coverage"

A lot of table saw injuries are from kick-back, which has nothing to do with touching the blade at all.
I have seen lots of flooring guys "free-hand" cuts, without even using the fence...recipe for kick-back.
There are also plunge cuts, which preclude the riving knife.

 

[smorgasbord]

Riving knives (just like the older splitters) are removable. The government can force the manufacturers to include them, but they can't keep the end user from it (except on job sites)

As I found out, the riving knife standard is a voluntary UL standard. But, everyone does it because of potential lawsuits otherwise.

3)The CSPS can't stop the private sales of anything. No one has that kind of authority.

https://www.narts.org/i4a/pages/index.cfm?pageid=3317#:~:text=Safe%20Crib%20Guidelines,-NARTS%20is%20providing&text=Selling%20a%20crib%20that%20does,be%20donated%20to%20a%20charity.&text=Flyer%20%2D%20Crib%20Safety%20Guidelines%20We,%E2%80%94especially%20drop%2Dside%20cribs.

Selling a crib that does NOT meet the new federal regulations/standards is illegal. They also cannot be donated to a charity.

The real cost will get pushed on commercial entities.

Yup, especially as OSHA will mandate things.

 

[mino]

https://www.narts.org/i4a/pages/index.cfm?pageid=3317#:~:text=Safe%20Crib%20Guidelines,-NARTS%20is%20providing&text=Selling%20a%20crib%20that%20does,be%20donated%20to%20a%20charity.&text=Flyer%20%2D%20Crib%20Safety%20Guidelines%20We,%E2%80%94especially%20drop%2Dside%20cribs.

Selling a crib that does NOT meet the new federal regulations/standards is illegal. They also cannot be donated to a charity.

Pretty sure that page is for shops/commercial entities and the forbidden activities include a "distribution" action which is implied as applicable only to a commercial/business transaction as the regulation applies only to such. This is why it is so important to check not only what a law says, but the area where it applies, or even the area of jurisdiction the instituting entity has to begin.

I am no US law expert by any measure, but am pretty sure a private person can sell on anything legally possessed, excepting a very very few items like prohibited weapons, restricted chemicals, etc. Generally, things that have their own explicit laws and mostly even possessing them is illegal.

I think even making a non-compliant crib for own kids and then selling on - aka an item not made-for-profit - would still be OK. For many reasons the regulations applicable to (mass/series) manufacturing and sale are generally way, way stricter than for individual item prodution for own use. Same with OHSA ans similar stuff.
The logic is simple - a mass manufacturer/employeer does not inherently have a skin in the game - it is presumed he does not care of the injuries his products/employees cause/get. Plus his customers/employees are likely to be unaware of the dangers/limitations. Also the impact can be very wide-reaching due to many pieces made, etc.

EDIT:
Read more on that specific insanity ... including the reductio ad absurdum official reasoning ... ok, another reminder to me on the non-functionality of long-running bureaucracies. Nevermind.
[eek]

/rant
Thankfully for the US collegues, it seems the CPSC is not the entity involved in tools design regulation. Else they would retroactively ban 99% of tool types on the market in a hunt for absolute safety, including chisels, hammers and such. These folks seem to literally run an asyllum and thus believe the whole country is one as well.
/end rant

 

[rmhinden]

If table saw safety regulations are created, I don't think they are also going to create table saw police that come looking for saws without the safety feature.  These saws are going to be on the used market for a long while.

I also won't be surprised if the other manufactures of table saws have done a lot of R&D knowing that this is likely to be required.  We will probably see product announcements after the regulations are passed.

Bob

 

[jeh]

5) ^^^
The real cost will get pushed on commercial entities. Cabinet shops and construction companies will be forced to comply. Even your local "shared-shop" club type places will have to conform, because of the liability.
It's probably more likely that insurance companies will have more power over this than anyone, which might even kill those older saws completely? "Get injured using a non-compliant saw.....no coverage"

Based on comments I have seen posted in various places (and from a long time SawStop reseller) commercial shops and schools are already using these. For commercial shops SawStop is the only option for new saws or reason enough to replace an existing saw(s). I realize there are larger saws that make sense for some shops and SawStop does not make those.

As for schools...without SawStop there are no tablesaws. Now they might have one in the shop, but no student is allowed to use it. That was case in the 80's when I took wood shop. It was there but was a "teacher only" tool. In my area schools are a primary client of the local vendor.

 

[Crazyraceguy]

Riving knives (just like the older splitters) are removable. The government can force the manufacturers to include them, but they can't keep the end user from it (except on job sites)

As I found out, the riving knife standard is a voluntary UL standard. But, everyone does it because of potential lawsuits otherwise.

3)The CSPS can't stop the private sales of anything. No one has that kind of authority.

https://www.narts.org/i4a/pages/index.cfm?pageid=3317#:~:text=Safe%20Crib%20Guidelines,-NARTS%20is%20providing&text=Selling%20a%20crib%20that%20does,be%20donated%20to%20a%20charity.&text=Flyer%20%2D%20Crib%20Safety%20Guidelines%20We,%E2%80%94especially%20drop%2Dside%20cribs.

Selling a crib that does NOT meet the new federal regulations/standards is illegal. They also cannot be donated to a charity.

That is for commercial sales. They cannot do anything about personal sales of darn near anything. The only thing you can't sell is something that no one is allowed to have in the first place. explosives, poisons, etc.

Based on comments I have seen posted in various places (and from a long time SawStop reseller) commercial shops and schools are already using these. For commercial shops SawStop is the only option for new saws or reason enough to replace an existing saw(s). I realize there are larger saws that make sense for some shops and SawStop does not make those.

We had Powermatic 66 as late as 2014, when they were replaced by the SawStops, but there are still others in the shop. The 12" Laguna slider, a Streibig panel saw, plus a HolzHer panel saw.
That doesn't even count bandsaws. "Used properly" they are probably the safest saw around, except track saw, but with the upper alignment wheels are set too high......they will cut the whole thing off, just like a butcher shop.

 

[squall_line]

I've soured on Stumpy Nubs.  The last time I watched a video of his with a clickbait thumbnail, he started by saying "I'm not going to tell you scary stories and try to sell you something" yet ended the video with a pitch for a product after telling crazy scary stories.  I can understand the semi-clickbait-y thumbnails because of "the algorithm", but.  I just have no other words about that.

3)The CSPS can't stop the private sales of anything. No one has that kind of authority.

https://www.narts.org/i4a/pages/index.cfm?pageid=3317#:~:text=Safe%20Crib%20Guidelines,-NARTS%20is%20providing&text=Selling%20a%20crib%20that%20does,be%20donated%20to%20a%20charity.&text=Flyer%20%2D%20Crib%20Safety%20Guidelines%20We,%E2%80%94especially%20drop%2Dside%20cribs.

Selling a crib that does NOT meet the new federal regulations/standards is illegal. They also cannot be donated to a charity.

That is for commercial sales. They cannot do anything about personal sales of darn near anything. The only thing you can't sell is something that no one is allowed to have in the first place. explosives, poisons, etc.
[/quote]

Not to derail this thread too much further, but the only way to sell an older crib like this is privately and off-books, or hand it off between family members.  Facebook, Craigslist, eBay, and others will take down listings, assuming their filters don't stop you in the first place.  Especially on cribs.  Charities won't take them, consignment stores won't let you drop them off either.

There are plenty of blog posts on this topic where people have received passive-aggressive semi-threatening letters from CSPC after posting a drop-side crib for sale online.  Not some moderator on Facebook, a CSPC employee him/herself.  [member=61254]mino[/member] 's reaction and update to his post is pretty much spot on, it's reductio ad absurdum and turtles all the way down. 

That level of over-involvement, in addition to the admission by the CSPC that there is still no known cause of SIDS *including cribs*, gives me no easy feeling about the future of private sales of table saws if the CSPC gets out over their skis on the language for any eventual rules.

 

[makpacman]

All this legal trouble reminds me of a fellow woodworker based in Ecuador back in 1992 showing me his homemade wooden tablsaw. It was art! Absolute precision. He said he'd make one saw from another, improving them over and over until he got the one he had.

I'm thinking a tracksaw and some plywood might have sped up the process. [wink, wink]

 

[prjones]

I heard this story on NPR this week and had two thoughts:

1. This would have been great 30 years ago when I mangled my thumb on Mother's Day doing something stupid on a cheap tables to finish a blanket chest for my wife for Mother's Day.

2. Government mandates are tricky. Not going to even come CLOSE to steering into politics here, so don't worry.  [big grin] Any time something is "required" by anybody else, there are downstream effects. Always. And unintended consequences. Sometimes those are good things for individuals and society (seat belts and speed limits come to mind), but they usually come as a benefit for one group at the expense of another. There are always tradeoffs.

3. When did this become a national issue anyway?? I was stunned by the story. I guess I've been distracted. And also I can't count.

 

[WillAdams]

This would be much less of an issue if injury lawsuit juries were made up of former shop teachers.

I also worry that the technology will add so much cost to the product that there will be a not insignificant number of injuries working the additional hours needed to pay for it, esp. if late nights and overtime are factored in.

 

[Crazyraceguy]

As I see it, nothing is foolproof. Eventually it's going to happen. Someone is going to get hurt on one...then what? Sue the government, because they said it was safe?
I'm actually surprised that we have never heard about someone getting hurt while using the saw in by-pass mode. They work exactly the same as any other saw, in that situation.
Not to mention the "false triggers". I have had it happen to me, more than once. It will cost you well over $100 every time it happens. That kind of thing will make people use the saw in by-pass mode every time they make a cut.....totally negating any safety advantage.
Unintended consequences, build a better mousetrap and the world will create a better mouse.

 

[jeh]

As I see it, nothing is foolproof. Eventually it's going to happen. Someone is going to get hurt on one...then what? Sue the government, because they said it was safe?
I'm actually surprised that we have never heard about someone getting hurt while using the saw in by-pass mode. They work exactly the same as any other saw, in that situation.
Not to mention the "false triggers". I have had it happen to me, more than once. It will cost you well over $100 every time it happens. That kind of thing will make people use the saw in by-pass mode every time they make a cut.....totally negating any safety advantage.
Unintended consequences, build a better mousetrap and the world will create a better mouse.

Airbags fail to save lives sometimes, there have been false triggers (accidents that should not have triggered them) and spontaneous (non-impact) triggering. That is no reason to not have them.

While anecdotal I've been using my SawStop (PCS and then an ICS) since 2009 and have never had a misfire. I've used the bypass a few times when the wetness of the wood was question in question. I will say I have not heard of anyone getting anymore than a nick from a legitimate firing. As for misfiring or a warranted firing the cost is not a big deal and the saw will still be able to used once the new brake and blade are in place. If a car has enough airbags fire and it is more than a few years old it will probably be totaled which is a significant cost to owner especially when they own the car. There is no winning when you have to buy a new car to replace one totaled by airbags firing.

The opposition to safety devices is really unbelievable to me when life-altering injuries can be the result of not having them.

 

[Crazyraceguy]

Airbags fail to save lives sometimes, there have been false triggers (accidents that should not have triggered them) and spontaneous (non-impact) triggering. That is no reason to not have them.

While anecdotal I've been using my SawStop (PCS and then an ICS) since 2009 and have never had a misfire. I've used the bypass a few times when the wetness of the wood was question in question. I will say I have not heard of anyone getting anymore than a nick from a legitimate firing. As for misfiring or a warranted firing the cost is not a big deal and the saw will still be able to used once the new brake and blade are in place. If a car has enough airbags fire and it is more than a few years old it will probably be totaled which is a significant cost to owner especially when they own the car. There is no winning when you have to buy a new car to replace one totaled by airbags firing.

The opposition to safety devices is really unbelievable to me when life-altering injuries can be the result of not having them.

That's a bit of a "false equivalence" position. You can't buy a new car without an airbag. For decades, it has been a choice you were not allowed to make. They are also a secondary "passive" device, with the seatbelt serving as the active.
There is nothing similar in the table saw range.
Warranted firing will indeed get you a replacement cartridge, but they will not replace the blade. You have to wait on their inspection of the unit, then accept their choice/diagnosis.
$100 for a blade and $70 for the cartridge is not the end of the world (especially if it saves a finger) but it is significant to most hobbyist users. Also, without a backup is stock, you are now having to source one (Sunday afternoon sound like fun?)
I had two false triggers in one afternoon, last spring. The only explanation I could get from the tech people was to replace the drive belt. Apparently, they are impregnated with something that continues a ground loop? Carbon? and it does diminish over time. It solved the problem, so there must be something to it. I don't recall ever hearing this disclosure though. This is in a much more heavily used environment than any hobby user's machine would see.
I'm not against them at all (If I had one in 2014, I would still have all of my thumb) but I don't think it should be a government mandate. There are just too many knock-on effects.
Like I said before, nothing is 100% fool-proof and the more of them that are out there, with less and less experience on the part of the users....it will happen. Then what?