SawStop sues Bosch

[Greg M]

Sawstop related issues aside, I'm still perplexed why sliders aren't more popular in the U.S. (Proper sliders, not cabinet saws with an extra outrigger slider bolted on).

To me, a cabinet saw still feels like the "model T" of table saws. Not saying they don't do a job right ... just a very dated design.

Space, I have no room for a slider.

A small Hammer slider takes up virtually the same footprint as a cabinet saw.

Still bigger and you have to have room for it to slide.  Plus it's more expensive then the better cabinet saws and much more expensive then the middle of the road table saws.

For many people it's an issue of space and money.  Would I like to have a slider?  Of coarse, but I don't want to spend the money on it, don't have the room, and really don't need it.

Fair enough ... that could answer for most and also be true in any region. So let's talk about it in relative terms.

Sliders seem to be very much uncommon in the U.S. relative to other countries - why do you think that is? U.S. workshops tend to be bigger for both home and business and U.S. price points are generally lower for just about everything.

My opinion is the expense.  While price points here are generally less than other countries the slider isn't.  Personally, I'd rather spend the saved money on other tools since I have a limited budget.  If my SawStop can't handle a cut (or it might be better to use another tool) I've got a Kapex or track saw that can.  Unlike some others here I find the table saw to be the most important tool that I have and my shop was designed around it.  A slider just wouldn't fit in my shop and if it could fit I'd have less Festool tools!  A SawStop and more Festool tools or a slider?

 

[flair woodworks]

A small Hammer slider takes up virtually the same footprint as a cabinet saw.

When I got my slider, I ended up with more work space since I didn't need the outfeed support my old saw required.

 

[Kev]

A small Hammer slider takes up virtually the same footprint as a cabinet saw.

When I got my slider, I ended up with more work space since I didn't need the outfeed support my old saw required.

Exactly my point.

Further, in Oz you can get a Hammer slider for the same money as a Sawstop professional ...  and they're both imports here!

I'd actually hazard a guess that very few US woodworkers even know what a compact sliding table saw looks like and it's just a another example of passive change resistance. The old "this works for me, so go away I'm not interested" thing!

If enough US woodworkers wanted a real compact slider at a lower price point it would probably spring into existence!!!

 

[Greg M]

A small Hammer slider takes up virtually the same footprint as a cabinet saw.

When I got my slider, I ended up with more work space since I didn't need the outfeed support my old saw required.

Exactly my point.

Further, in Oz you can get a Hammer slider for the same money as a Sawstop professional ...  and they're both imports here!

I'd actually hazard a guess that very few US woodworkers even know what a compact sliding table saw looks like and it's just a another example of passive change resistance. The old "this works for me, so go away I'm not interested" thing!

If enough US woodworkers wanted a real compact slider at a lower price point it would probably spring into existence!!!

Not even close to the same price here.  When I got my SawStop I looked at a slider, well more like glanced, and the price difference was enough to completely pay for my thickness planner and the head upgrade (that I installed myself) with money left over.  The price for a slider with close to the same cutting capacity as the SawStop was over $6k and my SawStop Pro 53" cost me $2700 (Amazon warehouse deal).  That's a huge difference!  Now the sale price today on the Hammer compared to a non-discounted SawStop is a lot less but it's still enough to pay for some other tool.

 

[Sparktrician]

I'm in the same boat as Greg M.  Much as I'd love to have a Hammer K4 or an Altendorf F45, there's absolutely no way I can justify the expenditure.  I also have no room for such a magnificent beast, but do have room for my older Bosch TS4000 on its folding stand.  When the Bosch REAXX becomes available here in NA, there will be one in my shop.  This price I can justify.  The Bosch technology seems to make more sense in that it doesn't damage the blade if it fires.  I don't dispute the quality of the SawStop saws, but I categorically refuse to do anything whatsoever to reward Steve Gass for his behavior. 

 

[Cheese]

I'd actually hazard a guess that very few US woodworkers even know what a compact sliding table saw looks like and it's just a another example of passive change resistance. The old "this works for me, so go away I'm not interested" thing!

I think you nailed it with that statement. When people in the states think table saw, they think of the traditional Delta/Powermatic 3-5 HP beast that sits in the middle of the shop. I'll go out on a limb here and surmise that if you mentioned "sliding saw", 90% of woodworkers, including those in the trades, would take that to mean a sliding mitre saw.

Marketing is a huge part of it, they don't have/seek any visibility. I can honestly say that I have never seen a sliding table saw in person.[eek] Brochures and internet only.
The price differential certainly doesn't help them become mainstream either.

 

[Cheese]

I also have no room for such a magnificent beast, but do have room for my older Bosch TS4000 on its folding stand.  When the Bosch REAXX becomes available here in NA, there will be one in my shop.  This price I can justify.  The Bosch technology seems to make more sense in that it doesn't damage the blade if it fires.  I don't dispute the quality of the SawStop saws, but I categorically refuse to do anything whatsoever to reward Steve Gass for his behavior. 

For me the need for a sliding table saw ended the day I purchased the TS 55. Would love to own one, they look pretty nice, but I'll just replace my old TS 4000 Bosch with a REAXX instead. [big grin]

 

[jaguar36]

I've been looking for a new table saw and was looking at the Hammer K3 that was about the same price as the Sawstop PCS.  You get a very small slider, which would be too small to really use for sheet goods, and the fence was very unimpressive.  It really seemed like they stripped off so much stuff to make it small and cheaper that it wasn't very good.

Course I've always hated Sawstops politics, and with this latest news, I'm not going to buy one either so I'm not sure where I'll end up.

 

[jeh]

Back on the Gass magic money device - has anyone stuck their hand into a Sawstop blade while wearing a work glove or a latex glove?

I think that the glove would simply delay the safety feature by the time it took to cut through the glove.

I have and the result was worse than what it would have been without one on. Still very minor though and healed up in about two weeks. Gloves are a very bad plan around any stationary tool. The only reason I had mine at the time was that I was working outside the shop with a non-power tool, had gloves on, and went into the shop to trim a board up.

 

[jeh]

I'm waiting for the Bosch version myself.  I liked what they were trying with SawStop, but I lost all respect for the company when they filed the lawsuit trying to make a table saw with safety features a requirement for schools. 

Honestly, I'd probably already have bought the sawstop if not for the lawsuit.

 

Schools would not have tablesaws if it were not for the SawStop. When I took shop class in the early 80's there was at least one tablesaw in the shop, but the students were not allowed to use it. I'll have to check with some friends kids to see if they are even in school shops. I do know that the dealer I purchased my SawStop from sells quite a few to schools. Of course usage in schools depends on where you live as some school districts have all but wiped out the trades classes thinking everyone should work in an office.

 

[leakyroof]

A small Hammer slider takes up virtually the same footprint as a cabinet saw.

When I got my slider, I ended up with more work space since I didn't need the outfeed support my old saw required.

Exactly my point.

Further, in Oz you can get a Hammer slider for the same money as a Sawstop professional ...  and they're both imports here!

I'd actually hazard a guess that very few US woodworkers even know what a compact sliding table saw looks like and it's just a another example of passive change resistance. The old "this works for me, so go away I'm not interested" thing!

If enough US woodworkers wanted a real compact slider at a lower price point it would probably spring into existence!!!

  Bring it to market here in the US, Kev...  You're already close to the manufs by way of your location .  And your marketing tag line could be something like,
The OZ Slider, it's a 'gasser' of a table saw..... [wink]

 

[jaguar36]

Schools would not have tablesaws if it were not for the SawStop. When I took shop class in the early 80's there was at least one tablesaw in the shop, but the students were not allowed to use it. I'll have to check with some friends kids to see if they are even in school shops. I do know that the dealer I purchased my SawStop from sells quite a few to schools. Of course usage in schools depends on where you live as some school districts have all but wiped out the trades classes thinking everyone should work in an office.

My school shop had a table saw that we all used and that was in the late 90s.  Was a nice Delta Unisaw.

 

[Kev]

Bring it to market here in the US, Kev...  You're already close to the manufs by way of your location .  And your marketing tag line could be something like,
The OZ Slider, it's a 'gasser' of a table saw..... [wink]

Australia? We're further from the home of Felder/Hammer that the US !!

 

[teocaf]

Bring it to market here in the US, Kev...  You're already close to the manufs by way of your location .  And your marketing tag line could be something like,
The OZ Slider, it's a 'gasser' of a table saw..... [wink]

Australia? We're further from the home of Felder/Hammer that the US !!

ha ha, it could be another geographically-challenged remark from someone confusing Australia and Austria!  Or perhaps it could be a clever remark alluding to the fact that some parts from Hammer's compact line are made in the "far east", which is much closer to Oz.

i love the bizarre series of turns that this thread took, from the guy who states he won't get in the middle of the fray and then starts his own long argument, to the guy who "takes a philosophical stand" when shopping for a quality tablesaw because he's at idealogical odds with the inventor.  i wonder if someone like that will likewise keep from buying other things because they might be made by a place that severely curtails worker's rights or that games the currency on a global scale...  very amusing--this is like the forum version of reality tv.

I wish that I was aware of a compact hammer slider when I got my sawstop some years back; I would have given it serious thought and added it to my decision matrix. But I'm still very satisfied with my purchase and am considering getting their new slider attachment.  I did find sawstop's customer service to be very good the couple of times that I contacted them.

For those who mentioned space as a concern, check out this guy's video--'where there's a will there's a way', as they say:

 

[jaguar36]

to the guy who "takes a philosophical stand" when shopping for a quality tablesaw because he's at idealogical odds with the inventor.  i wonder if someone like that will likewise keep from buying other things because they might be made by a place that severely curtails worker's rights or that games the currency on a global scale...

Assuming you're talking about me, then Yes I try to avoid buying things from companies that treat their employees like crap.  Its not always feasible, but when possible I do.  Not buying something from a company that you disagree with is the best way to influence the behavior of the company.  Although I suppose you could be like Sawstop and just sue everyone.

I like how you weren't willing to call people out by name.

Also, to be clear I'm not opposed to a company defending their legitimate inventions.  However to often patent law is used just to extort money, or as a way to hurt your competition.  Considering Sawstop's past history I think this is what is going on here.

 

[Cheese]

...very amusing--this is like the forum version of reality tv.

For those who mentioned space as a concern, check out this guy's video--'where there's a will there's a way', as they say:

[member=2205]teocaf[/member]
Funny...[thumbs up]

However, I think the correct saying is, 'where there's a will, there's a relative.'

 

[leakyroof]

Bring it to market here in the US, Kev...  You're already close to the manufs by way of your location .  And your marketing tag line could be something like,
The OZ Slider, it's a 'gasser' of a table saw..... [wink]

Australia? We're further from the home of Felder/Hammer that the US !!

  NO, No, No.  I meant you're closer to the Asian Factories than we are, not Austria.  [eek]

 

[Kev]

Bring it to market here in the US, Kev...  You're already close to the manufs by way of your location .  And your marketing tag line could be something like,
The OZ Slider, it's a 'gasser' of a table saw..... [wink]

Australia? We're further from the home of Felder/Hammer that the US !!

  NO, No, No.  I meant you're closer to the Asian Factories than we are, not Austria.  [eek]

Lucky for you - I was about to repeat you for geography this year [big grin]

That said - many times I've been complimented in the U.S. on how well I speak "American" ... like American is even a language  [eek]

 

[Wuffles]

Bring it to market here in the US, Kev...  You're already close to the manufs by way of your location .  And your marketing tag line could be something like,
The OZ Slider, it's a 'gasser' of a table saw..... [wink]

Australia? We're further from the home of Felder/Hammer that the US !!

  NO, No, No.  I meant you're closer to the Asian Factories than we are, not Austria.  [eek]

Lucky for you - I was about to repeat you for geography this year [big grin]

That said - many times I've been complimented in the U.S. on how well I speak "American" ... like American is even a language  [eek]

I had an ex-Army mate get into bother trying to enter the US on a UK passport. When asked which Country he was travelling from he declared England which was met with confusion from the official - "England, you know, where we invented English...the language you speak?" met with icy stares. Wasn't allowed through until he said UK. Unreal.

 

[Kev]

Bring it to market here in the US, Kev...  You're already close to the manufs by way of your location .  And your marketing tag line could be something like,
The OZ Slider, it's a 'gasser' of a table saw..... [wink]

Australia? We're further from the home of Felder/Hammer that the US !!

  NO, No, No.  I meant you're closer to the Asian Factories than we are, not Austria.  [eek]

Lucky for you - I was about to repeat you for geography this year [big grin]

That said - many times I've been complimented in the U.S. on how well I speak "American" ... like American is even a language  [eek]

I had an ex-Army mate get into bother trying to enter the US on a UK passport. When asked which Country he was travelling from he declared England which was met with confusion from the official - "England, you know, where we invented English...the language you speak?" met with icy stares. Wasn't allowed through until he said UK. Unreal.

Yep - US customs officials .. bred in captivity, with any hint of personality engineering out of the strain.

I can imagine scientists engineering the creature ...

[evil laugh]

First we'll start with the stare of Hannibal Lecter .... then we'll add the personality from a piece of concrete ...