SCM joins Felder, Altendorf with touch-less safety system

[Tom the Remodeler]

Well, it looks like SCM has joined Felder and Altendorf with a saw featuring a touch-free safety system. It appears to be a vision-based system similar to (or identical to) the Altendorf method which relies on cameras and machine learning, whereas the Felder system operates more like a theremin.

At 7:20 the demonstrator practically runs at the blade, impressive demonstration:
=323

Great to see another brand adopt the safety technology, I wonder at what point Sawstop will need to update their technology to keep up? The Sawstop currently requires flesh contact to trigger the system, and during a "hot dog" demonstration at a local woodworking store, I saw the Sawstop cut nearly 1/4 of the way through the hot dog before the system fully engaged. That Sawstop demonstration didn't inspire a lot of confidence.....

 

[ChuckM]

Unlike the SawStop approach, this kind of protection doesn't require any contact with the finger. It won't cause any minor cuts like the SawStop. Why did they use a hot dog but not a finger in the demo? That would be more dramatic in the effect of demonstration.

 

[Michael Kellough]

The SCM demonstration is extremely impressive!
The Sawstop tech is now over twenty years old.

 

[ChuckM]

Wherever a demo includes a hot dog... it is a copycat! [tongue] [tongue] [tongue]

 

[squall_line]

That was fun to watch with the captions.  The speaker had a pretty decent sense of humor although his intonation barely changed at all when he was getting his little jabs in.

"It's not that Paolo doesn't trust the system, but the convention has safety rules, so we use a sausage."

"Carpenters find creative ways to use the machine in an unintended manner, so we have to protect against that, too."

 

[Cheese]

Why did they use a hot dog but not a finger in the demo? That would be more dramatic in the effect of demonstration.

Are you offering up your finger Chuck...? [poke] [poke]

 

[Cheese]

So if it's based on the vision system, which is pretty sweet, if my finger is already bandaged in white gauze or if I'm wearing a white glove for whatever reason...does the saw think my finger is equivalent to white laminate?

 

[ChuckM]

Why did they use a hot dog but not a finger in the demo? That would be more dramatic in the effect of demonstration.

Are you offering up your finger Chuck...? [poke] [poke]

Shouldn't the finger come from someone associated with the saw manufacturer, to be fair to SS inventor Gass?
=youtu.be

 

[jeh]

Well, it looks like SCM has joined Felder and Altendorf with a saw featuring a touch-free safety system. It appears to be a vision-based  ...
The Sawstop currently requires flesh contact to trigger the system, and during a "hot dog" demonstration at a local woodworking store, I saw the Sawstop cut nearly 1/4 of the way through the hot dog before the system fully engaged. That Sawstop demonstration didn't inspire a lot of confidence.....

As someone with first hand experience after being nicked I can assure the damage level was not anywhere close to 1/4 the depth of a hot dog. Mine was the width of the blade and about a dime's depth. Healed up in about a week leaving no marks/scars of any kind. Looking at SawStop's website you will see more of the same. Competition is good though I do not believe any of the alternative entries to SawStop are financially in reach for most. I admit their target market is not consumers or small construction industry firms.

 

[jeh]

Unlike the SawStop approach, this kind of protection doesn't require any contact with the finger. It won't cause any minor cuts like the SawStop. Why did they use a hot dog but not a finger in the demo? That would be more dramatic in the effect of demonstration.

No insurance company would cover such stupidity nor should any human be stupid enough to attempt it. Do keep in mind these safety devices are at the lowest levels computers with software and no software is perfect especially considering there is external hardware involved which can fail as well. The odds are highly in your favor for a one-off attempt, but it is still insane. Consider something far less complex such as a GFCI outlet. Would you drop a running hair dryer in a bathtub while sitting in it or standing in a puddle of water? Of course you would not.

 

[ChuckM]

Snip.

No insurance company would cover such stupidity nor should any human be stupid enough to attempt it.
Snip.

I never consider Dr. Steve Gass a stupid person even though he trusted and proved his invention with his finger, nor do I think he had sought the permission of any insurance company before he performed his "finger" test.

It's simple, risk-free and injury-free to conduct a test with a real finger under a proper setup/in a controlled environment using the SCM or the like technology: Put a finger slowly until it's xx mm from the spinning blade (whatever that xx is that would trigger the finger-saving safety feature). That should show the technology in real time. No?

Drama achieved and no harm done.

 

[squall_line]

They literally said in the video that the convention wouldn't allow them to use their own finger/hand.

 

[ChuckM]

The finger test shouldn't be done in the convention; I was thinking of a demo done in a controlled environment, with their engineers carefully planning the video session ahead of time.

 

[pixelated]

An engineer I once knew said "a safety system is only safe if you don't rely on it".

That would seem to apply to testing safety sensors with actual, attached, fingers. I'm figuring on buying a Sawstop, but should I decide to test it, I'll use a hot dog.  [wink]

It's nice to see a system that successfully (presumably) bypasses Sawstop's patents, though it doesn't look to be a machine that's affordable for weekend warriors.

 

[ChuckM]

As a SawStop user (since 2006-ish), I never test it, not even with a hot dog (for obvious financial reasons), other than going through the system start-up LED test. Steve Gass knew how to etch his technology on people's mind (including that of non-woodworkers who watched that video) with his real finger test. Hard to beat that in terms of dramatic effects.

 

[Oldwood]

An engineer I once knew said "a safety system is only safe if you don't rely on it".

My table saw safety system has always been to know where the blade is at all times and insure my hands are not in the direct path, front or back. I would never be able to bring myself to introduce my hand to a spinning blade in the hope that the engineered system would do its job. So I guess I agree with the engineer told you

I like the idea of these safety systems, but I object to the destructive nature of the Sawstop system. I hope we see more systems that do not destroy the blade and the stopping mechanism in the future.

 

[Tom the Remodeler]

While all of these safety features are welcome, my experience with sliders tells me they're vastly more safe than a "traditional" table saw.

As has been pointed out many, many times in the past, many table saw accidents result from kick-back injuries, and/or hand/blade interactions (sometimes as a result of a kick-back event).

Traditional table saws can try to solve for the hand/blade interaction with proper guarding and safety mechanisms, but positioning the user in line with the blade is a recipe for disaster. I'm not sure you could pay me enough to work with a "traditional" table saw at this point.

Sliders, on the other hand, are inherently safer since the user has to position him/herself to the side of the machine, thereby making kick-back related injuries nearly impossible. Add in a combination of a Fritz & Franz, some clamps and some bridging, and there's no reason, ever, to have one's hands anywhere near the blade other than carelessness or laziness.

I see that the Hammer 31"x 31" K3 machine is only a few hundred dollars more expensive than a Sawstop PCS, making entry-level sliders eminently competitive cost-wise, and I'd argue superior from a safety perspective.

 

[Lincoln]

While all of these safety features are welcome, my experience with sliders tells me they're vastly more safe than a "traditional" table saw.

As has been pointed out many, many times in the past, many table saw accidents result from kick-back injuries, and/or hand/blade interactions (sometimes as a result of a kick-back event).

Traditional table saws can try to solve for the hand/blade interaction with proper guarding and safety mechanisms, but positioning the user in line with the blade is a recipe for disaster. I'm not sure you could pay me enough to work with a "traditional" table saw at this point.

Sliders, on the other hand, are inherently safer since the user has to position him/herself to the side of the machine, thereby making kick-back related injuries nearly impossible. Add in a combination of a Fritz & Franz, some clamps and some bridging, and there's no reason, ever, to have one's hands anywhere near the blade other than carelessness or laziness.

I see that the Hammer 31"x 31" K3 machine is only a few hundred dollars more expensive than a Sawstop PCS, making entry-level sliders eminently competitive cost-wise, and I'd argue superior from a safety perspective.

The absolute pig-headed approach to table saw safety, but many on youtube/social media is astounding. They think that guards, knives etc aren't necessary, if you 'know what you're doing'. If you've ever had an incident on a saw, or any piece of machinery, you know that there is absolutely nothing you can do - which is why those safety measures, including hand/body placement, are so important.
When I was an apprentice, I had a radial arm saw, which we used for rough cutting boards to length, 'climb cut' towards me. It happened so fast, there was no way I could have got my hand out of the way. Luckily safety had been drummed into me from day 1...still gave me a huge shock though.

 

[Tom the Remodeler]

While all of these safety features are welcome, my experience with sliders tells me they're vastly more safe than a "traditional" table saw.

As has been pointed out many, many times in the past, many table saw accidents result from kick-back injuries, and/or hand/blade interactions (sometimes as a result of a kick-back event).

Traditional table saws can try to solve for the hand/blade interaction with proper guarding and safety mechanisms, but positioning the user in line with the blade is a recipe for disaster. I'm not sure you could pay me enough to work with a "traditional" table saw at this point.

Sliders, on the other hand, are inherently safer since the user has to position him/herself to the side of the machine, thereby making kick-back related injuries nearly impossible. Add in a combination of a Fritz & Franz, some clamps and some bridging, and there's no reason, ever, to have one's hands anywhere near the blade other than carelessness or laziness.

I see that the Hammer 31"x 31" K3 machine is only a few hundred dollars more expensive than a Sawstop PCS, making entry-level sliders eminently competitive cost-wise, and I'd argue superior from a safety perspective.

The absolute pig-headed approach to table saw safety, but many on youtube/social media is astounding. They think that guards, knives etc aren't necessary, if you 'know what you're doing'. If you've ever had an incident on a saw, or any piece of machinery, you know that there is absolutely nothing you can do - which is why those safety measures, including hand/body placement, are so important.
When I was an apprentice, I had a radial arm saw, which we used for rough cutting boards to length, 'climb cut' towards me. It happened so fast, there was no way I could have got my hand out of the way. Luckily safety had been drummed into me from day 1...still gave me a huge shock though.

Agreed! I have a KF700 with the overhead guard and riving knife. One time I swung away the overhead guard to make what I thought needed to be a "precision" cut. Haven't swung it away since, have found other methods that don't involve an exposed blade.

Was never a fan of those radial arm saws, that climb cutting business always seemed like an accident waiting to happen.

Adding Mac's Airtight Clamps was the best piece of safety gear on my machine, looking forward to receiving another set for my Profil 45 in the next couple weeks. Wouldn't be without them now.https://mac-campshure.squarespace.com

 

[Michael Kellough]

While all of these safety features are welcome, my experience with sliders tells me they're vastly more safe than a "traditional" table saw.

As has been pointed out many, many times in the past, many table saw accidents result from kick-back injuries, and/or hand/blade interactions (sometimes as a result of a kick-back event).

Traditional table saws can try to solve for the hand/blade interaction with proper guarding and safety mechanisms, but positioning the user in line with the blade is a recipe for disaster. I'm not sure you could pay me enough to work with a "traditional" table saw at this point.

Sliders, on the other hand, are inherently safer since the user has to position him/herself to the side of the machine, thereby making kick-back related injuries nearly impossible. Add in a combination of a Fritz & Franz, some clamps and some bridging, and there's no reason, ever, to have one's hands anywhere near the blade other than carelessness or laziness.

I see that the Hammer 31"x 31" K3 machine is only a few hundred dollars more expensive than a Sawstop PCS, making entry-level sliders eminently competitive cost-wise, and I'd argue superior from a safety perspective.

Do you still use the Erika? Is it set up as a slider?

How do you do arrow rips on a slider without getting close to the blade?