SCM joins Felder, Altendorf with touch-less safety system

[Tom the Remodeler]

While all of these safety features are welcome, my experience with sliders tells me they're vastly more safe than a "traditional" table saw.

As has been pointed out many, many times in the past, many table saw accidents result from kick-back injuries, and/or hand/blade interactions (sometimes as a result of a kick-back event).

Traditional table saws can try to solve for the hand/blade interaction with proper guarding and safety mechanisms, but positioning the user in line with the blade is a recipe for disaster. I'm not sure you could pay me enough to work with a "traditional" table saw at this point.

Sliders, on the other hand, are inherently safer since the user has to position him/herself to the side of the machine, thereby making kick-back related injuries nearly impossible. Add in a combination of a Fritz & Franz, some clamps and some bridging, and there's no reason, ever, to have one's hands anywhere near the blade other than carelessness or laziness.

I see that the Hammer 31"x 31" K3 machine is only a few hundred dollars more expensive than a Sawstop PCS, making entry-level sliders eminently competitive cost-wise, and I'd argue superior from a safety perspective.

Do you still use the Erika? Is it set up as a slider?

How do you do arrow rips on a slider without getting close to the blade?

Hi Michael,

Still using the ERIKA and loving it. I primarily use it as a crosscut machine. I don’t use it for ripping much, when I do rip I’m careful to stand off to the side, as if it were a slider. These days I try to prepare materials in the Shop prior to going on-site, performing rips on the slider or bandsaw.

For narrow rips on the slider, I use pneumatic clamps and wooden bridge pieces as cauls. The bridge pieces are consumables and can be discarded when burned up. Depending on what I’m making, I can set the rip fence as a bump stop or set up parallel guides on the slider. Using the rip fence as an indexing bump stop, I can rip 1mm solid wood edge banding all day long. Any time i’m making a cut on the slider my hands are on the outrigger, the “butt bar”, or on the clamp stanchions, nowhere else.

 

[Michael Kellough]

Thanks for the explanation Tom.

How long a piece can you cut using the slider?
And which machine is that?

 

[Tom the Remodeler]

Thanks for the explanation Tom.

How long a piece can you cut using the slider?
And which machine is that?

Hi Michael,

I’m glad that helps. I’d post pics but the Forum keeps telling me the image size is too large. I can send images via e-mail if you’d like.

I’m currently using a Felder KF700SP, which is a saw/shaper combination machine. My machine is configured with a 3.2m (~10’) sliding table. I can easily straight line rip 9’ stock, secured by a pneumatic clamp at each end.

The KF700SP is a decent machine, and I think a great value for the money. Of course there are heavier/fancier machines, but for a one person shop it’s a great fit.
https://www.felder-group.com/en-us/products/saw-shapers-c1950/saw-shaper-kf-700-p144098

 

[RussellS]

The finger test shouldn't be done in the convention; I was thinking of a demo done in a controlled environment, with their engineers carefully planning the video session ahead of time.

At the end of the Steve Gauss SawStop video posted above where he puts his finger into the blade, there is a link to a test of the Bosch saw that works similar to the SawStop.  Its tested by someone who reviews tools I think.  He tests it with his hand.  Originally he was going to put his finger into the blade.  But right before putting his finger in, he thinks of a different testing method.  He takes a 2x4 lumber and clamps it over the blade and raises the blade through the 2x4 so it comes out just a 1 mm out the top.  Then he slams his palm onto the top of the 2x4 and blade.  He gets a nick from the Bosch safety mechanism.  No blood but just a scrape/cut so subcutaneous skin is showing and its reddish color.  Kind of like a scraped knee.

It makes a nice video I guess.  But I don't think it adds much if anything to proving the safety of the product.  My cars have seatbelts and airbags.  I trust they will work if needed.  I do not need the CEO of Toyota or Ford or GM or Honda to get in a car and put on the seatbelt and drive into a concrete pillar at 60 mph to prove the airbag and seatbelt work to save lives.  Or for companies that make bullet proof vests.  Does the CEO put on a bullet proof vest and take a handgun down to the factory floor and ask one of the workers to shoot him in the chest?  I'm guessing they do not test their products that way.  Very few people use bullet proof vests.  Military and police use them.  Does every police officer using one require their Chief of police to test the vest before they use it?  Do all of the Chiefs have to put on a vest and have every policeman in the precinct shoot him multiple times before the vest are officially used?  I would guess not.  I suspect all the Chiefs and policemen take the companies word on the product, and official government certification marks.

 

[ChuckM]

The point of a finger test I had in mind isn't about proving the technology! (The hot dog already did it.)

 

[Packard]

When Saw Stop first announced their technology, they did not intend to produce table saws.  Their intention was to license their technology. But none of the saw manufacturers were interested.  Delta was their primary target.

You have to think that Delta (and others) shot themselves in their collective feet by not embracing the tech.  Essentially, they created a new competitor.

I am entirely self-taught on woodworking. Thirty years ago, I bought my first table saw and I had no introductory instructions.  My introduction was reading the owners’ manual. 

What I intuitively knew, was not to allow the spinning blade to make contact with any body part.

What I did not know, was the dangers of kick-back.  And even when I read about kick-back, I did not know about the risk of kick-up when cutting very short lengths of stock.  That kick-up was the only accident I have had with my table saw (or in woodworking in general).

I do wonder if this safety tech is going to lure people into believing that table saws are inherently safe.

I was lucky.  My kick-back/kick-up experience only ripped off a fingernail (though that required a hospital visit and was very painful).  After the accident, I still did not know what I had done wrong.  It was only when I posted about the accident in a different site that I learned about the short piece issue. 

So my concern is that the tech will replace smart working protocols. Time will tell.  It is almost painlessly obvious that the tech will save some fingers or more.

As an aside:  I ran into a high school classmate about 20 years after we graduated.  He had both arms amputated and had grasping-steel-hook artificial limbs. 

He said he lost both arms below the elbow in a table saw accident.  He was working at a cabinet shop at the time. 

I knew nothing about table saws at that time and I took the explanation at face value. 

Vinny (the cabinet maker) was what we called back then a “rough character”.  I never had any problems with Vinny, and I did not know anyone that had.  But he carried a flask to school and drank during breaks.  This started when he was 16 and continued through to graduation.  I don’t recall if he actually graduated though.

He also played poker and liked to gamble.

In retrospect I don’t think his loss of limbs was due to a table saw “accident”.  I now suspect the “accident” was helped along by others.  (I cannot imagine the set of circumstances that would allow you to lose both arms in a single table saw accident.).

Saw Stop probably would not have saved Vinny’s arms.

 

[Cheese]

Very few people use bullet proof vests.  Military and police use them.  Does every police officer using one require their Chief of police to test the vest before they use it?  Do all of the Chiefs have to put on a vest and have every policeman in the precinct shoot him multiple times before the vest are officially used?  I would guess not.  I suspect all the Chiefs and policemen take the companies word on the product, and official government certification marks.

Well interestingly enough...for any Minneapolis or St. Paul police officer to carry a Taser on duty, it is a prerequisite to have the officer "ride the lightning bolt" before they are issued a Taser.  [eek]

 

[ChuckM]

I took a beginner woodworking class that lasted several evenings, learning how to use a table saw (SS hadn't existed yet and riving knives were rare), among other things. On the second night, one of the 6 or 7 participants showed us a broken pencil that was a result of a kickback she experienced with her own table saw. If the projectile had hit her a few inches higher, and not her apron pocket where she kept the pencil, she figured that she probably would not have been able to come to the class.

That's how I first heard/learned about kickback. I still use the push shoes (note: not push sticks) and bench hook that we made in the class today (they've been slightly improved since).

I had come across a mild kickback in my whole woodworking life, and I wasn't in the line of fire. Now, with the Jessem stock guides on my SawStop, as long as it is deployed in a rip cut, it is impossible to have a kickback. (And unknown to most, if not all, Stock Guides users, you can rip stock as narrow as 1/4" wide with the Stock Guides in place. That's why with few to no exceptions, I always rip with the Stock Guides.)

 

[squall_line]

Well interestingly enough...for any Minneapolis or St. Paul police officer to carry a Taser on duty, it is a prerequisite to have the officer "ride the lightning bolt" before they are issued a Taser.  [eek]

This is simply hazing, thinly disguised as "understanding the severity of the decision to use a taser, even though it's a non-lethal weapon".

Editing and stopping my thoughts there before I violate FOG rules...

 

[RussellS]

The point of a finger test I had in mind isn't about proving the technology! (The hot dog already did it.)

If you believe the technology works, then why are you calling for people to put their finger into the blade to prove it works?  In a previous post you stated "That would be more dramatic in the effect of demonstration."  You were referring to using a finger in the saw safety mechanism and not a hot dog as most companies do.  Why do you want drama?  I understand drama and thrill and excitement is important in some instances.  Such as going on a roller coaster.  But for most things, I want no drama at all.  Cutting wood fits in this category.  I just want to slide the wood through the blade and cut the wood.  No drama wanted.

 

[RussellS]

I do wonder if this safety tech is going to lure people into believing that table saws are inherently safe.

So my concern is that the tech will replace smart working protocols.

Your idea is frequently cited whenever any safety device is issued, mandated.  Number of injuries will go up because people are more careless and count on the safety device protecting them.  I believe there have been many studies about it with collecting data before and after the safety device and finding number of accidents went up or down.

Airbags and seatbelts in cars.  Both are required in all cars and seatbelts are required to be used.  So everyone is safe.  I am sure the data shows number of deaths per thousand declined with the usage of airbags and seatbelts compared to previous decades.  But have number of accidents and unsafe driving per thousand increased or decreased after airbags and seatbelts came into use?  Do people count on the airbags and seatbelts (and anti lock brakes too!!!!!!) to save them so they intentionally do not drive as safely?

 

[ChuckM]

Snip.  No drama wanted.

Be my guest.

Just like some woodworkers wanting no finger-saving technology.