Screws vs nails

Deansocial

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To save any more off topicness in the blu wood thread i started this. Mods feel free to move some posts here.

Right i use screws for alot of things, Roofing is 1 of them but it depends what it is. If it is a straight forward roof then i wil nail but if it has huge timbers in itlike 9x3 rafters etc then i will screw it.

Ply/osb sheathing will get gunned on and studwork gunned together then rear it up.

Screws do snap easy unless they are specialist screws and they cost more, screws also take longer to put in so i choose wisely
 
in reference to those who say they would use screws for framing...how many of you/them are actually framers? vs finish carpenters?

I can't imagine a professional framer would use screws for rough framing unless you were using hard old wood/reclaimed wood?
 
greenMonster said:
in reference to those who say they would use screws for framing...how many of you/them are actually framers? vs finish carpenters?

I can't imagine a professional framer would use screws for rough framing unless you were using hard old wood/reclaimed wood?

Let me broaden your vision: how about we don't use any wood for framing at all? All our houses are made out of concrete, steel and bricks. It's no fun hammering a nail in there.

[attachimg=1]

In the few remaining places where wood is used in a load bearing way, like the roof, the beams are bolted together as you can see here:

[attachimg=2]

Of course nails are still used in some applications. Like the ones Dean mentions, but there are many people who would prefer to use screws for that very same thing.

The wooden houses that are so common in the States are total history here, for centuries even, as brick houses were the standard in the 17th century already.
 
timber frame is becoming more common in the uk but all i hear is the short lifespan they have, But working in places that are 100years+ old and are still solid but the 1 thing that often needs replacing or upgrading is the timber.

The timber frame in the uk is normally all prefab type affair and often the panels are screwed or bolted together on site
 
If I remember correctly, the houses on streets like Princengracht in Amsterdam were several hundred years old. Maybe Alex can lend some incite into age and construction methods...

Tom
 
Used to work with a builder whose framing crews were only allowed to pound nails by hand...you pull a framing nailer out of your truck, you would be run off the job site.  And this is fairly recent, it was kind of nice to be on site to hear it.  Not only that, there's something about a well struck nail with a hammer.  Kind of a lost art.

Jon
 
When I was young and just big enough to drive framing nails, I was taught that they hold better if you drive them with fewer hits. It seems to make sense though I can't support the thought with any rational evidence.

Does anyone know if it's true?

If it is true, it would seem logical that nail guns work better than hammers.

Tom
 
I remember we I lived in Holland our house was made out of concrete  its a good way of building a house BUT for altering services water electricity its a kinda pain in the arse though aint it? cus you dont have voids any where.  Solid concrete floor upstairs and walls.  I dont really know cus I wasnt in the trade then just from what my Dad says when he use to do some DIY.

I cant see any logical reason driving a nail with less hits gives a better hold to be honest.

Framing guns the nails are smaller gauges then the nails you would often drive in with a hammer.  I have used large nails my self but its quicker to drive a large screw I believe especially if the piece your nailling aint fixed moving about every where and if its above your head or a slightly awkward place. 

If you are comparing a nail gun size nails which a lot of you seem to be comparing then yeah you would be quicker but the gauge on them nails are tiny and using a hammer they fly in but they are only 90mm so very short and you so you would nail from the side of the timber at an angle so creating a dovetail fixing with the nails  but I believe a large 300 mm screw which goes through the top of the timber down into the other wood is FAR stronger.     

Also like mentioned by Dean our timber houses come prefabricated and are bolted together not nailed.    I see a lot of American videos and you lot are just banging nails in left right and centre one after another with air powered guns you wont see that here in the UK.  Often bolts are required and/or metal straps which will be fixed with short twist nails.

I screw studding now.  I didnt always I use to use my nail gun but after couple years I changed the way I work slowly and started to screw studding cus with these performance screws they fly in with no problem.  Its clean,tidy and a lot more solid cus with  nails the wood isnt getting that pull it just basically just touching I think cus you cant get a twist out of a 4x2 with nails but you can with screws.

I think it all depends on what kinda of joiner you are I suppose!! Different types of joiners have different standards and tolerances!

I treat a roof just like I treat a kitchen I like it all to be with in mm and joints to be bang on.  Its why one of my builders loves having me over many other joiners as they want everything spot on!  Its also why I like them!  Their wall plates are always bang on level  not even 1mm out of parallel over 7metre spans.  They don't like me using a nail gun they prefer me to use structural screws and thats what they get me.

I think the only thing I use my nail gun for now is nailing roofing laths thats it and maybe if im fixing ply on a roof but I props would screw the ply down.

JMB

 
Tom Bellemare said:
If I remember correctly, the houses on streets like Princengracht in Amsterdam were several hundred years old. Maybe Alex can lend some incite into age and construction methods...

If you want to know I can tell something, sure. I lived for 3 years in Amsterdam, in 3 different houses close to the Prinsengracht, so I know them quite well. I always worked on the house I lived in and on some of my friends.

Most houses in the centre of Amsterdam are indeed 300 or 400 years old. I lived a while in a house from 1682 and there was one on the other side of the road from 1368. Most of them stem from the 17th century, what is called our Golden Century because it was the time of the West-Indies and the V.O.C., the first multinational. Holland was the world's most powerfull seafaring nation in those days and had trade missions all over the world. Almost all of the houses that were built in Amsterdam's centre that time were warehouses for all the trading companies and not meant to live in. You can see this in the basic construction of the houses. Funny thing is, they were taxed in that time by how wide the house was in front,  so you'll find that the warehouses were all very long, sometimes up to 30 meters, but very small, only 3 or 4 meters. There is even one known building that was hardly 1 meter wide.

They say Amsterdam is built on poles, because of the muddy ground. It was basically a swamp out there before the city was built. So the foundation of every house is a bunch of long poles hammered into the ground to give it a base to built on. Then there's a stone foundation built on those poles. All the walls were made out of bricks, but because they were warehouses, they only had outer walls, no inside walls. The floors were supported by very thick wooden beams, placed very close together and anchored to the sides in the walls. And then a layer of thick planks over them to make up the floors. The floors were made so strong to support all the goods that had to be stored there. In the picture below you can see how heavy and close together the beams were placed.

[attachthumb=1]

The warehouses were built pretty high for that time, going up to 4 or 5 levels with a slanted wooden roof on top with baked roof tiles. The houses were always mainly built out of stone. With the Great Fire of London still in mind, which destroyed 90% of London, wooden houses were avoided, if not entirely forbidden in most European cities.

Later on, in the 19th and 20th century as Amsterdam grew, most economic activity was redirect to the outskirts and planned harbours and slowly but surely all warehouses were converted into normal houses, mostly for those who had some money to burn. Today that inner circle of Amsterdam is one of Europe's most expensive places to live. Now it's littered with lawyers, financial consultancy agents, docters and embassies.  

The picture below nicely illustrates what different states of houses you can find in Amsterdam. On the far right there is a house that still looks on the outside as an original warehouse, with all the doors on every floor and a rope crane block on top. Then next to that a well maintained buildings that was converted to an expensive residents house. In the middle you can see a house that is partially crooked to one side. You will find a lot of crooked houses like that in Amsterdam. Despite all the poles Amsterdam was built on, still a lot of houses sunk away and became crooked. As a remedy, as you can see on the two left most houses, they added a network of wooden beams on the outside to prevent the house from crumbling entirely. All bolted btw.

[attachthumb=2]  

I hope this satisfies your curiosity a bit Tom.  [smile]
 
jmbfestool said:
I remember we I lived in Holland our house was made out of concrete  its a good way of building a house BUT for altering services water electricity its a kinda pain in the arse though aint it? cus you dont have voids any where.  Solid concrete floor upstairs and walls.  I dont really know cus I wasnt in the trade then just from what my Dad says when he use to do some DIY.

I cant see any logical reason driving a nail with less hits gives a better hold to be honest.

Framing guns the nails are smaller gauges then the nails you would often drive in with a hammer.  I have used large nails my self but its quicker to drive a large screw I believe especially if the piece your nailling aint fixed moving about every where and if its above your head or a slightly awkward place.   

If you are comparing a nail gun size nails which a lot of you seem to be comparing then yeah you would be quicker but the gauge on them nails are tiny and using a hammer they fly in but they are only 90mm so very short and you so you would nail from the side of the timber at an angle so creating a dovetail fixing with the nails  but I believe a large 300 mm screw which goes through the top of the timber down into the other wood is FAR stronger.     

Also like mentioned by Dean our timber houses come prefabricated and are bolted together not nailed.    I see a lot of American videos and you lot are just banging nails in left right and centre one after another with air powered guns you wont see that here in the UK.   Often bolts are required and/or metal straps which will be fixed with short twist nails.

I screw studding now.  I didnt always I use to use my nail gun but after couple years I changed the way I work slowly and started to screw studding cus with these performance screws they fly in with no problem.  Its clean,tidy and a lot more solid cus with  nails the wood isnt getting that pull it just basically just touching I think cus you cant get a twist out of a 4x2 with nails but you can with screws.

I think it all depends on what kinda of joiner you are I suppose!! Different types of joiners have different standards and tolerances!

I treat a roof just like I treat a kitchen I like it all to be with in mm and joints to be bang on.  Its why one of my builders loves having me over many other joiners as they want everything spot on!  Its also why I like them!  Their wall plates are always bang on level  not even 1mm out of parallel over 7metre spans.  They don't like me using a nail gun they prefer me to use structural screws and thats what they get me.

I think the only thing I use my nail gun for now is nailing roofing laths thats it and maybe if im fixing ply on a roof but I props would screw the ply down.

JMB

i thought iwould just point out jmb that the air powered guns fire a larger gauge nail than a paslode gas nailer. They can fire up to a 7" nail in fact i thing if you buy the right nailer
 
Deansocial said:
jmbfestool said:
I remember we I lived in Holland our house was made out of concrete  its a good way of building a house BUT for altering services water electricity its a kinda pain in the arse though aint it? cus you dont have voids any where.  Solid concrete floor upstairs and walls.  I dont really know cus I wasnt in the trade then just from what my Dad says when he use to do some DIY.

I cant see any logical reason driving a nail with less hits gives a better hold to be honest.

Framing guns the nails are smaller gauges then the nails you would often drive in with a hammer.  I have used large nails my self but its quicker to drive a large screw I believe especially if the piece your nailling aint fixed moving about every where and if its above your head or a slightly awkward place.   

If you are comparing a nail gun size nails which a lot of you seem to be comparing then yeah you would be quicker but the gauge on them nails are tiny and using a hammer they fly in but they are only 90mm so very short and you so you would nail from the side of the timber at an angle so creating a dovetail fixing with the nails  but I believe a large 300 mm screw which goes through the top of the timber down into the other wood is FAR stronger.     

Also like mentioned by Dean our timber houses come prefabricated and are bolted together not nailed.    I see a lot of American videos and you lot are just banging nails in left right and centre one after another with air powered guns you wont see that here in the UK.   Often bolts are required and/or metal straps which will be fixed with short twist nails.

I screw studding now.  I didnt always I use to use my nail gun but after couple years I changed the way I work slowly and started to screw studding cus with these performance screws they fly in with no problem.  Its clean,tidy and a lot more solid cus with  nails the wood isnt getting that pull it just basically just touching I think cus you cant get a twist out of a 4x2 with nails but you can with screws.

I think it all depends on what kinda of joiner you are I suppose!! Different types of joiners have different standards and tolerances!

I treat a roof just like I treat a kitchen I like it all to be with in mm and joints to be bang on.  Its why one of my builders loves having me over many other joiners as they want everything spot on!  Its also why I like them!  Their wall plates are always bang on level  not even 1mm out of parallel over 7metre spans.  They don't like me using a nail gun they prefer me to use structural screws and thats what they get me.

I think the only thing I use my nail gun for now is nailing roofing laths thats it and maybe if im fixing ply on a roof but I props would screw the ply down.

JMB

i thought iwould just point out jmb that the air powered guns fire a larger gauge nail than a paslode gas nailer. They can fire up to a 7" nail in fact i thing if you buy the right nailer

Okay that is bigger BUT still ain't as big as a screw can be. 

I don't think I have has used my paslode for 1hole year now I'm sure.  Strange really as when I first started joinery I was using it pretty much every other day and I still do the same type of work and more now.

Jmb
 
i think you need to understand where the precision of a screw is needed and where the speed of a nail is fine, As for hammer marks in everything, learn to hit the nail not everything but the nail
 
Deansocial said:
i think you need to understand where the precision of a screw is needed and where the speed of a nail is fine, As for hammer marks in everything, learn to hit the nail not everything but the nail

Well I think you need a screw to keep your gate shut or would a nail do the job?
 
Got a padlock for that tonight. Been alot of breakins around the local area so worried me a little
 
Deansocial said:
Got a padlock for that tonight. Been alot of breakins around the local area so worried me a little

Get the Paslode out, it will work wonders on burglars  [big grin]

John...
 
youd be amazed at the distance you can fire one of those nails and at how acuurate you can be.

its amazing that in this couyntry you need a gun licence for a gun but not for a paslode. and a paslode can out fire a shotgun
 
Alan m said:
youd be amazed at the distance you can fire one of those nails and at how acuurate you can be.

its amazing that in this couyntry you need a gun licence for a gun but not for a paslode. and a paslode can out fire a shotgun

I have to ask from an American perspective, in America handgun permits are easier to get and many Americans do get them. As the number of permits go up, violent crime goes down.  Over in the UK and Europe.... you don't allow guns to citizens. and violent crime is now at record highs......  Hey even Sherlock had Watson bring his revolver to most cases...LOL..

When I lived in Ireland (after 9/11) for a year.... lets just say ....  chemical reactions to move small metal objects kept me safe and stopped bad things from happening... 

Really what is the issue with firearms in the Europe .... after living in Ireland, UK and Europe... I won't go without security... of some sort.

Your crime is out of control and your Garda/police... just is not stopping crime... Do any of you really feel safe over there now?

Cheers,
Steve
 
without getting political . your right. crime is rampent.this is one reason i would like a paslode. guns have to be in cabinets but nail guns dont. they stole the phine wires a while back. they will steal everything thats not nailed down or should that be screwed, thats the question (to get back on topic).

i screw stud frames together as well , i think they are stronger that way. i use more screws than i do nails but i think nails have there uses.
 
i feel safer knowing that not every man and his dog has a gun over here. The media make this place sound awful but it isnt bad at all.
 
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