Seek advise for staining and finishing large maple counter top.

[Howad]

I'm reaching out for help with finishing a large (10' x 2') maple counter top.  The wood is not really "pretty" - it is 1x boards pulled off the rack from HD.  I'm trying to get a nice dark color using General Finishes water based dye (vintage cherry) and then stain (espresso).  Then I was going to finish it off with GF poly acrylic.  

My main problems have been splotchy dye (even though I used pre-stain) and inconsistent coverage of stain on the large surface.  My observations so far are that the dye wipes on fine each time but may reveal problems with the prestain or insufficient sanding.  Stain is always problematic to apply.

I have attempted the finishing schedule 4 times but have never got as far as the clear coat yet. Here is what I've done so far:

First attempt:
did not use pre-stain, Splotchy dye, uneven stain plus too dark/thick (see attached pic)

Second attempt:
wiped on General Finishes pre-stain.  Working with a friend we sprayed then wiped dye.  uneven results that I attribute to uneven pre-stain application.  Sanded back to bare wood.

Third attempt:
sprayed pre-stain then wiped off.  Sprayed, then wiped dye. At this point it was looking really good.  Working with a friend we applied and frantically wiped down the stain using a spray bottle of water to keep the stain liquid long enough to get a pretty consistent layer.  Except, one spot near the center of the counter was too light and we attempted to touch it up but couldn't get it right.  In desperation (after my friend left) I attempted to wet down the whole counter and re-wipe but either because of lack of technique or because there was only one person and I couldn't wet and wipe fast enough, could not improve the finish - going downhill.  I even tried again the next day after a good nights sleep but to no avail.  Back to bare wood :-(

Fourth attempt:
Applied (not sprayed) pre-stain.  Sprayed/wiped dye.  This time I got uneven spots with the dye coat.  not sure if it was poor application of pre-stain or artifacts from previous attempts and not sanding deep enough.  Applied oil-based stain anyway.  the oil-based seems to be more forgiving to apply but I don't seem to get nearly as dark a staining.

sorry but I don't have pics of any except the first go at this.

I am now questioning the entire process and don't know where to make adjustments or to just blindly try again.  Any suggestions would be appreciated.

 

[dltflt]

I ran into this same problem with maple a couple of years ago.  Here is the Conditioner I used.  It is a good product.  You can either brush or spray it on then sand.  It will probably take two or three coats but the nice thing is you can still see the grain but the color is even.  Here is a picture of the frame I used it on.

 

[Howad]

Don T, thanks.  I'll give the Charles Neil conditioner a try - heard good things about it from others too.

 

[tjbnwi]

Zinnser Seal Coat.

Tom

 

[mouppe]

Have you considered painting it?

 

[junk731]

I use General Finishes Expresso a fair bit and have had good results. I find on maple that I sand to 220 and wipe on a coat, spraying doesn't get the same results. Let that coat dry and light sand. then apply another coat. The Expresso isn't a typical stain as it has some poly mixed in with. For me the second coat evens out the blocthes and light spots. Then top coat with EnduroVar.

John

 

[NYC Tiny Shop]

I've also had good results with Zinnser Seal Coat, but cut it with denatured alcohol or it went on too thick to easily get even. Also, I've had good results with General Finishes Antique Walnut Gel Stain. Another favorite is GF Arm-R-Seal.

 

[BMH]

Opted to go this route as I have two project I am going to have to finish with the same concerns you have

http://www.halfinchshy.com/2013/12/finishing-simply-put.html

Should have it in a couple of days.

Bruce

 

[deepcreek]

Maple is difficult to stain a dark color because it tends to splotch even with a conditioner.  My recommendation would be to seal it with a spit coat of Shellac and then use a Gel stain.  Call the folks at General Finishes and ask for their advice.  I've found them to be very helpful on projects like this.

 

[rnt80]

Has anyone tried spraying Charles Neil's blotch control?  I've used it for a couple of years with good results but I've always applied it by hand with a rag.  I'd be interested to hear about anyone's experience spraying it.

 

[Howad]

Have you considered painting it?

Not for this project - client wants to see grain (but I get your point).

 

[Howad]

I use General Finishes Expresso a fair bit and have had good results. I find on maple that I sand to 220 and wipe on a coat, spraying doesn't get the same results. Let that coat dry and light sand. then apply another coat. The Expresso isn't a typical stain as it has some poly mixed in with. For me the second coat evens out the blocthes and light spots. Then top coat with EnduroVar.

John

John, do you see any issue if I used your method on top of the dye?  What grit do you sand the first coat of stain with (320, 400?).  Do you use any anti-blotch first or are you going for a solid espresso color?

As I am writing this I am starting to think that I should mix the dye and stain instead of layering  [scratch chin]

 

[Howad]

Opted to go this route as I have two project I am going to have to finish with the same concerns you have

http://www.halfinchshy.com/2013/12/finishing-simply-put.html

Should have it in a couple of days.

Bruce

I'm actually going to take a full day class by him at my local Woodcraft in April (http://woodworkersclub.com/classes/cwfinish/)
Might have to get the book too though - thanks for the link - and thanks Paul Marcel for posting it

 

[tiralie]

I'm reaching out for help with finishing a large (10' x 2') maple counter top.  The wood is not really "pretty" - it is 1x boards pulled off the rack from HD.  I'm trying to get a nice dark color using General Finishes water based dye (vintage cherry) and then stain (espresso).  Then I was going to finish it off with GF poly acrylic.  

I think most of the problem is that nasty HD maple. The only straight boards at HD either contain a fair amount of moisture or are bone dry. If you picked the  boards for straightness I would guess that the uneven moisture level between the boards are your biggest problem here.
What is the temperature of your shop?
Did you do any test boards or step panels with your off cuts before starting?

As John (junk) pointed out the older (one quart cans) GF dye has some poly in it. This is good as it reduces grain raise but bad because it seems to prevent the dye from being absorbed into the maple as evenly as it should. The key to spraying stain is to mist and wait till that layer dries and then to spray multiple light layers so you don't get pooling which creates light and dark areas. When you mist the successive layers create a base for the next layer. The first layer will look a little blotchy but successive layers will even this out.  

My main problems have been splotchy dye (even though I used pre-stain) and inconsistent coverage of stain on the large surface.  My observations so far are that the dye wipes on fine each time but may reveal problems with the prestain or insufficient sanding.  Stain is always problematic to apply.

Yes, spraying dye is stressful because what you see is not what you end up with after the dye dries.

I have attempted the finishing schedule 4 times but have never got as far as the clear coat yet. Here is what I've done so far:

First attempt:
did not use pre-stain, Splotchy dye, uneven stain plus too dark/thick (see attached pic)

Second attempt:
wiped on General Finishes pre-stain.  Working with a friend we sprayed then wiped dye.  uneven results that I attribute to uneven pre-stain application.  Sanded back to bare wood.

After this I would have turned the top over and started  on a fresh surface.

The poly in the dye gets absorbed into the maple and it's often difficult to know after sanding it and inspecting it visually to know if you have removed it all. I spray some distilled water on the surface and watch if there is any indication of beading. Planning the surface (ripping the boards in to manageable widths) reglue and then reapply the dye.

Third attempt:
sprayed pre-stain then wiped off.  Sprayed, then wiped dye. At this point it was looking really good.  Working with a friend we applied and frantically wiped down the stain using a spray bottle of water to keep the stain liquid long enough to get a pretty consistent layer.  Except, one spot near the center of the counter was too light and we attempted to touch it up but couldn't get it right.  In desperation (after my friend left) I attempted to wet down the whole counter and re-wipe but either because of lack of technique or because there was only one person and I couldn't wet and wipe fast enough, could not improve the finish - going downhill.  I even tried again the next day after a good nights sleep but to no avail.  Back to bare wood :-(

Using water slightly dissolved the dye and wiping removed some of the dye in certain areas causing the stain to absorb and dry unevenly creating large blotchy areas. If you are going to wipe on stain you must seal the dye. My preferred sealer is Shelac

Fourth attempt:
Applied (not sprayed) pre-stain.  Sprayed/wiped dye.  This time I got uneven spots with the dye coat.  not sure if it was poor application of pre-stain or artifacts from previous attempts and not sanding deep enough.  Applied oil-based stain anyway.  the oil-based seems to be more forgiving to apply but I don't seem to get nearly as dark a staining.

Holy crap. I would have set the top on fire and started again.

Because of the prestain and because the dye has some poly in it, it is sitting more on the surface rather than being absorbed into the wood. The dye is creating a barrier to the darker stain being absorbed.

After the first attempt, sanding will usually not be enough to completely remove all the dye and poly in the pores of the wood. I usually find that I need to plane the surface but even that doesn't seem enough. When I run into this problem I turn the board over and start with a clean fresh surface.

Here is a picture of a cabinet top that I sprayed with GF dye.
[attachimg=#]

 

[nclemmons]

Maple is one of the hardest woods to stain - right up there with pine.

I purchased not only Charles Neil's blotch control for use on maple and cherry, but also his DVD collection.  It's like 10 discs, but he does a great visual job of explaining what it takes to understand dyes, stains, gels, etc.  Well worth the time to watch if you are new to finishing and want to learn.

Have you considered black Formica?!  [big grin]

neil

 

[Howad]

Thanks for all the input (I think) but knowing that maple is one of the hardest woods to stain is, in a perverse kinda way, comforting.  Counter top is sanded down again, 

Tim - I'll sand down deeper and use your water method to check for remnants of absorbed material - thanks. I also plan on switching to the Charles Neil conditioner.

Holy crap. I would have set the top on fire and started again.

I had to laugh at that.  Don't get me wrong, I was angry but there is a silver lining.  After third attempt, realizing that I was in this deep and would have to take more drastic measures, I pouted over to my local Festool dealer and bought a Rotex 150 to make the intermittent sandings faster.

Your cabinet is beautiful Tim, that is pretty much the color I'm going for. Any chance you can share the color of dye(s) you used?

I've got a lot of info to sort through but hopefully I'll have a better result to post soon

 

[tiralie]

Any chance you can share the color of dye(s) you used?

Here is my recipie:

I sprayed the entire project with my Fuji Q4 Gold.
For the dye, I used an .7 mm air cap set on my XPC gun. I set the fan to wide and cut back the flow and sprayed (misted) with the gun about a foot away from the substrate.

- spray (plant sprayer) with distilled water - let dry
- sand to 120
- spray coat of GF LightBrown Dye - let dry
- Spray coat of GF Dark Brown Dye - let dry

Cabinet top only :
- Spray 2 coats of EM 6000 satin scuff sand with 400 or ruby scotch pad between coats
- Spray 1 coat of EM 9000 satin

For the rest of cabinet I sprayed an additional coat of EM 6000 satin

I did a step panel on Maple first to test color and get approval from my client. I was matching some existing kitchen cabinetry.

[attachimg=#]

From left to right: plain maple, GF dark brown, Amber Shelac, Toner of 10% Dark brown with EM6000, EM6000. On the two last steps one side is satin and the other is gloss.

I felt there was too much contrast between the light and dark areas of the grain looked so that is why I added the undercoat of light brown in the final

Here is an off cut of the top.

[attachimg=#]

This was shot in natural light so the color is pretty close...depending on your monitor

I did some larger samples of the final recipe. Here is a messed up panel with too much spray and a rushed sanding job...

[attachimg=#]

And the same panel after wiping down the whole panel with Methyl Hydrate (alcohol and water)

[attachimg=#]

Hope that helps.
Tim

edited for spray gun additions/settings

 

[tjbnwi]

Nice job Tim.

Tom

 

[hopper]

Because of the nature of the grain in maple, it is at best difficult to get an even color.  Wood cells grow together to form groups that would resemble a bundle of drinking straws placed side by side.  Stain goes on evenly along the length of the cells but is absorbed much more in the end of the straws ( that's why end grain is so much darker). Where you see a blotch on the surface, look closely with a magnifier and you will see that  that is where the ends of the grain have come to the surface and absorbed more stain. No amount of sanding will fix that issue. You have to apply some kind of filler/sealer or "blotch control" to fill that end grain.   Even doing that will not completely prevent color variations along the surface.  I tell my customers if they want the wood to be evenly colored then paint it.  Variations in color is what makes wood wood.

 

[NYC Tiny Shop]

Tim,
The cabinet looks great. Also, your explanation and demo in your following thread was terrific! Nice effort.