sentimental furniture

[Tinker]

I'm not sure if this is the right section to discuss my problem.  If it should be someplace else, I am sure Forum Cops will let me know.  thanks

My wife just inherrited a house (to be sold >>> if possible) and a few pieces of old, very old, furniture. All from her homeland in Germany. No value except for sentimentality

The load just arrived a couple of days ago and we had planned to try cleaning some pieces (all three of them) and refinishing.  However, my problem is not how to cleanup or to refinish.  that will come later.

As we started looking things over, we have discovered tiny worm holes in some of the wood.  I have no idea if there is any living livestock in side, but it does give pause. 

My questions:
Is there any way we can tell if there is any livestock activity other than putting a clean sheet underneath and just waiting?
Is there any way other than bonfire to be sure the wood has been cleaned. (You think Festoys are expensive?  try shipping a few pieces of furniture from across the pond.  NOT cheap. )

I am thinking this could be a serious problem, and I should have thought about it before giving my own consent to bringing the furniture over here.

Any advice would be greatly appreciated
Tinker

 

[monte]

Tinker,

I had a neighbor where I previously had my shop who restored antique furniture. He had two methods to liquidate any "livestock".........
The first one (the old timers way) was that if he was going to refinish the piece anyhow, (meaning stripping and sanding etc) before refinishing he would "DRENCH" the piece with WD40. Right side up, upside down, sideways......after that they and their eggs were GONE. Let it dry out a few days, and get to work on it.(remember this is southern California)
The second method was to take one of those bug bombs, (you know the one you ignite and then leave the house) only he would make a sealed plastic tent around the piece, place the bug bomb inside and duct tape it close.

hope that gives you food for thought.

Roger

 

[Tinker]

Tinker,

I had a neighbor where I previously had my shop who restored antique furniture. He had two methods to liquidate any "livestock".........
The first one (the old timers way) was that if he was going to refinish the piece anyhow, (meaning stripping and sanding etc) before refinishing he would "DRENCH" the piece with WD40. Right side up, upside down, sideways......after that they and their eggs were GONE. Let it dry out a few days, and get to work on it.(remember this is southern California)
The second method was to take one of those bug bombs, (you know the one you ignite and then leave the house) only he would make a sealed plastic tent around the piece, place the bug bomb inside and duct tape it close.

hope that gives you food for thought.

Roger

Thanks Roger,
I had thought of something like the bug bomb.  One of our dogs in the past used to get fleas and we would set a bomb off in the house very now and then. I think maybe now, while the August temps are still high outside, might be just the right time to make a tent and try.

About the WD-40, doesn't that leave a residue that would be detrimental for some future finishes?  I actually like that idea, but we are not planning to refinish.  We will probably refinish the top (which seems to be free of any infestations) of the beaurough. There is a nice chair which is probably the best kept piece, but a lot of fancy striping that I don't care to mess with.  Would the WD-40 affect the old finish?  There is also a small end table that I thought I might try to refinish. I might try the WD-40 on that.

Incidently, I have used WD-40 and wax for years on my tablesaw, bandsaw and other castiron surfaces for years in the battle against rust.  A shot of WD-40 and steel wool mixed with plenty of elbow grease to get rid of the rust, if any.  Then a couple of applications of the WD-40 sprayed on and the wax (i use Carnuba wax) rubbed vigorously in with cloth while the WD is still wet.  After two or three applications, i let dry and then buff with my RO 150.  That lasts for several years before any sign of rust comes back.  As soon as i see a speck of rust, i do it again.  That second application seems to last just about forever.

thanks again for your ideas.
Tinker 

 

[monte]

Good morning Tinker,

"About the WD-40, doesn't that leave a residue that would be detrimental for some future finishes? " Since you are not stripping, sanding etc. I would definitely do a test on something with a similar finish first. I personally haven't tried the WD40 on something that is retaining its original finish. My speculation on how it would effect the finish is ....I don't know. If you do try it on a scrap or an unseen section of the piece you would want to work on, after several days, concerning any residue - my GUESS is that DENTAURED ALCOHOL would be the best solvent to remove any surface residue.

PLEASE KEEP IN MIND......that any  spraying of WD40 at any time should be done outside the shop. The WD40 could get airborne and settle on other wood surfaces. (which could effect future finishes if absorbed into wood that you weren't planning of sanding down.) In the past I knew an English craftsman (that did restoration work for the Getty Museum -not my neighbor from my above post) that didn't even allow WD40 in his shop for this reason. His craft  focused on "old world processes" such a French Polishing and using Hyde Glue only. Most of the antiques that he worked on were heirloom pieces that in order to retain their (high) value any fixes or finishing needed to be done in the same manor created, but I digress.

(by the way, as you could guess the English bloke above used the bug fogger method in a plastic tent method, mentioned in my first post)

hope this is helpful,
all the best,
Roger

 

[Tinker]

Roger, I've pretty much decided on the bug fogger method.  I'm always using tarps and clear plastic for other projects (landscape materials protection.  I'll just open a roll and use it on the furniture before it gets destroyed on a job somewhere.
Tinker

 

[MarkF]

Tinker,
If you are friends with a wood drying kiln owner see if you can include the furniture in a load during the sterilizing stage.  135 F internal temp for 2 days should kill any eggs or live bugs and should not do irreperable damage to the furniture.

 

[Tinker]

Tinker,
If you are friends with a wood drying kiln owner see if you can include the furniture in a load during the sterilizing stage.  135 F internal temp for 2 days should kill any eggs or live bugs and should not do irreperable damage to the furniture.

My wife grew up with these pieces.  She thinks they are as old as the house they were in.  The house is over 100 yrs old.

I would guess the glue is hide glue.  All the joinery appears to have been done by hand.  Would that sort of heat damage the glue?

Tinker

 

[monte]

Tinker,
If you are friends with a wood drying kiln owner see if you can include the furniture in a load during the sterilizing stage.  135 F internal temp for 2 days should kill any eggs or live bugs and should not do irreperable damage to the furniture.

My wife grew up with these pieces.  She thinks they are as old as the house they were in.  The house is over 100 yrs old.

I would guess the glue is hide glue.  All the joinery appears to have been done by hand.  Would that sort of heat damage the glue?

Tinker

Tinker,

To quote one of our FOG colleagues,

"GOOD GAWD MAN!"

I'd be a little skeptical about cooken something in a kiln that has a finish and Hyde glue in the mix.

As I believe you mentioned earlier, that you weren't planning on redoing the finish. 

But maybee that just me.  : : :

Or to put it another graphic way, as a comparison.....

What musician would leave his/her fiddle or violin - in a car for two days, 

in an open parking lot during the Phoenix summer with all the windows closed?

Roger

 

[MarkF]

Sorry Roger but I don't think we're talking about delicate musical instruments.  I'm asuming Tinker is dealing with larger pieces.  135F is an expected temperature in an uninsulated attic during the summer.  I've pulled lots of antiques out of attics wich were stored for many years. These were all put together with hot hide glue.  20+ years of freezing and very high temps will turn hide glue to powder.  A few days with gradual increase in temperature and gradual decrease in temperature when finished should not damage the glue or a shellac finish.  It's an extreme recommendation and is not something you would want to do with a delicate piece but exposure to who knows what poison in a bug bomb is not optimal or guaranteed effective either. I would think you would need to put the poison under pressure to get it where the eggs are located in the wood.  135F for a few days is guaranteed to take care of the bug and egg problem.
According to this study:http://aic.stanford.edu/sg/wag/1990/WAG_90_buck.pdf
exposure to high humidity impacts the holding power of hot hide glue more than 150F exposure for 4-7 days.

If you're anxious about the high temp approach you can go in the opposite direction.  Store the furniture at ~0 Deg F for 48 hrs in a walk-in freezer.  This will kill all live beetles and their eggs.
http://extension.oregonstate.edu/catalog/pdf/pnw/pnw326.pdf

 

[monte]

Good evening Mark,

Pardon my knee - jerk reaction above,

It's just that I've been in the periphery of furniture restoration for a few years now.

And although a piece of furniture may not be a fine instrument,

One needs to understand that antiques are like grandparents,

You never know what ailment is going to come up next.

So they need to be treated with the same respect as a fine instrument,

Antiques have veneers, inlays, glues on the edge of holding.

Sometimes the accumulation of all of the above is like a castle of cards,

frozen in time.

If your going to suggest to someone to place a sentimental antique in a wood kiln,

(of which you haven't even seen a picture of, or the details of, or the condition of the veneer .........of said piece)

.........And not rely on a "study", and the furniture in your attic to prompt a recommendation,

I would believe it would be proper to have done that yourself with a valuable antique, since that is not the norm.

Yes, I've read all the technical data you provided.......

And, without trying to sound harsh, that's what it remains...... technical "data".

I also haven't read of the Getty Museum, The Brooklyn Museum, The New York Metropolitan Museum or auction houses placing high price antiques into kiln ovens.

(Tinkers family's antique would be of greater value on a sentimentality level to any piece from the above collections)

Please excuse me for my distaste for your suggestion.

All of the restoration people that I know in person and antique restorers such as those below use the tent method.

(in addition to other oil treatments ....see first attachment below)

If anything should be suggested to Tinker,  it is that he might do more harm than good,

without having a background in insect remediation and perhaps he might inquire to seek out a professional in the matter.

Roger

p.s. This is not to say I'm not open minded to the possibility.
      I would love to see a photo of a renown antique dealer placing a container load of valuable antiques into a Kiln Oven.


Reprint #1

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  http://www.architecturals.net/tips/index.cfm/article/3002

Reprint #2

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http://blog.lib.umn.edu/ochsn016/topic/2008/03/antique-furniture.html

Reprint #3

[attachimg=#]

 http://www.rc-antique.com/mainpages/service.shtml

 

[Tinker]

Roger, I have read thru all of the research you came up with.  I really appreciate.

One of the sources indicated to damage from storage with no temp/humidity control.
The large chest of drawers is full of splits and cracks from just such a situation.
There is peeling veneer on the lower area of one side.  Looks like actual water damage.  Where wife wants to put the piece, the problem will not be visible.  I don't have space, or time to deal with any veneer problems.
The top is solid wood.  Looks like it might be maple with a trim moulding around three sides.  One corner, the moulding has completely separated and has warped.  I do not expect to play around with that either.  I am not really a repair oriented person and have way too many new pieces of my own promised to too many people.

The furniture was stored in an unheated, uninsulated attic.  If you have ever been to europe and had occasion to visit some real old houses with the tile roofs, you know how much to expect in regards to extreme fluctuations.  This old house had a good solid roof that did not leak except during WW II when bombs had damaged some of the roof tiles.  Even tho the roof had been repaired by the time i knew my wife and had visted her homeland, there was no rain leaking in.  When the wind blows, you can feel it between the tiles.  In winter, there is frost buildup on the underside of the tiles, even with (or perhaps because of) all the breeze.  That frost goes somewhere when temps rise.  I am sure that had serious effects.  In summer, you can hardly stand the heat on a hot day, but surprisingly cool at nite.  Not a great situation for storage of anything that can be affected by climatic conditions.

I like you ideas for fumigation and will set up outside with a plastic tent.  A couple of layers of clear poly covered with a couple of layers of blue tarp.  Maybe all of those layers seem like overkill.  I will be leaving the furniture outside for several days and fumigate two or three times.  I don't know about life cycle of whatever is possibly chewing away, but with landscaping, we attack most insect problems on trees with several applications about 21 days apart.  Logic tells me to do the furniture the same way.

As far as further damage to the wood and finish, i don't think I can do much worse than what has happened over the last 40+ years of attic storage.  (The Boss has been in this country for 50 years now, 43 of them putting up with me) 

Mark, I appreciate your thoughts and i am sure you mean well.  I am just nervous about the high temps of the kiln.  I suppose the pieces may well have been subjected to even higher heats over short periods of time while in that uninsulated attic.  Since i will be treating them outside on a concrete deck with multiple cover layers, maybe I will be subjecting them to same sort of temps.  Atleast I won't be traveling all around the countryside and needing help loading and unloading.  When I was 38, i thought nothing of that sort of effort.  Now I'm 39, : that sort of lifting has far less appeal to me.  And my wife gets sort of balky when i strap heavy loads on her back  ???

Thanks again for all of the research and advice.
Tinker

 

[RexxyNOB17]

Sentimentality is both a literary device used to induce a tender emotional response disproportionate to the situation, and thus to substitute heightened and generally uncritical feeling for normal ethical and intellectual judgments, and a heightened reader response willing to invest previously prepared emotions to respond disproportionately to a literary situation. So, you must take care it.

_________________
Patio furniture

 

[Neill]

Just a general, maybe stupid question / comment.  Maybe even a bit off topic.

The US Department of Agriculture is very concerned about bringing plants, food, etc. into the country because of the possibility of introducing "new" pests to the country.  Isn't this a concern with furniture, especially upholstered furniture.  They should insist on fumigation before it leaves the country of origin or clears customs.

Just my two cents...

Neill

 

[ForumMFG]

Neill,

When I worked for a industrial oven company (the ovens that are football fields long) and when we would go to ship over seas we had to use special wood that was certified to cross waters just because of that reason.  I don't know if it's the same coming into the US but when ever anything is shipped to certain country's, you have to use certified wood that has been checked for insects or they will not accept delivery.

-Dave

 

[Neill]

Neill,

When I worked for a industrial oven company (the ovens that are football fields long) and when we would go to ship over seas we had to use special wood that was certified to cross waters just because of that reason.  I don't know if it's the same coming into the US but when ever anything is shipped to certain country's, you have to use certified wood that has been checked for insects or they will not accept delivery.

-Dave

Dave,

Thanks for the reply.  I figured that there had to be some controls.  Just wondered how they handle finished furniture.

Neill

 

[woodshopdemos]

Tinker,
  If the bombs dont do the job, you can get from a welding supply distributor a bottle of OxyFume 12 sterilant gas.  It kills everything.

 

[Neill]

Tinker,
   If the bombs dont do the job, you can get from a welding supply distributor a bottle of OxyFume 12 sterilant gas.  It kills everything.

John,

Including the user?  That's no fun.

Neill