Setting cursors on the TSO parallel guide without guesswork (design weakness ?)

[Jason.L.Hagen]

[mention]TSO_Products [/mention] It’s been almost 3 months since you said you were making a video. I haven’t seen it posted anywhere. What happened to this video? I just got my set of tracks and was looking for this video.

 

[TSO_Products]

[member=73418]Jason Hagen[/member]  - ooops:-\
as soon as I wipe the egg off my face we'll put the video we made months ago up on our SUPPORT Tab on the website.
This last step was overlooked when we sent the video directly to the OP of this thread - so thank you for this reminder!

I'll post here when it's visible on our website in the next few days.

Hans

 

[TSO_Products]

[mention]TSO_Products [/mention] It’s been almost 3 months since you said you were making a video. I haven’t seen it posted anywhere. What happened to this video? I just got my set of tracks and was looking for this video.

[member=69715]MikkelF[/member] - [member=65145]manuc[/member] - [member=680]Jason White[/member] and  [member=73418]Jason Hagen[/member]

I’m happy to report the short video  demonstrating the proper use of the Cursor for aligning the FlipStop to the engraved scale on the TPG T-tracks is now available on TSO website

• Linked on the TPG FlipStop page, at the bottom in its own section titled "Tips for Using the TPG FlipStop":https://tsoproducts.com/tso-paralle...-flipstop-v2-0-for-tpg-parallel-guide-system/
o It has also been added to the Product Videos tab of this same page

• Added to the Product Videos tab for the main TPG Parallel Guide System page:https://tsoproducts.com/tso-parallel-guide-system/tpg-parallel-guide-system/

• Added to the SUPPORT page, under the TPG Parallel Guide System listing:https://tsoproducts.com/support/

with my apologies for the delay in getting this posted
We hope this helps!
Hans

 

[DynaGlide]

[mention]TSO_Products [/mention] It’s been almost 3 months since you said you were making a video. I haven’t seen it posted anywhere. What happened to this video? I just got my set of tracks and was looking for this video.

[member=69715]MikkelF[/member] - [member=65145]manuc[/member] - [member=680]Jason White[/member] and  [member=73418]Jason Hagen[/member]

I’m happy to report the short video  demonstrating the proper use of the Cursor for aligning the FlipStop to the engraved scale on the TPG T-tracks is now available on TSO website

• Linked on the TPG FlipStop page, at the bottom in its own section titled "Tips for Using the TPG FlipStop":https://tsoproducts.com/tso-paralle...-flipstop-v2-0-for-tpg-parallel-guide-system/
o It has also been added to the Product Videos tab of this same page

• Added to the Product Videos tab for the main TPG Parallel Guide System page:https://tsoproducts.com/tso-parallel-guide-system/tpg-parallel-guide-system/

• Added to the SUPPORT page, under the TPG Parallel Guide System listing:https://tsoproducts.com/support/

with my apologies for the delay in getting this posted
We hope this helps!
Hans

I guess I've been doing it wrong all along

 

[Bertotti]

Sight Alignment sight picture, I ordered this set up a couple of days ago. I have been using stair stops on two framing squares which is close enough in many cases but not nearly close enough in others.

 

[ChuckS]

May be I'm missing the technique, I don't see how the video resolves the OP's query:

"Because on the metric ruler, the cursor is thicker (wider) than the lines on the ruler, so when the cursor is above the line, there is no way to know if it is centered, one can only guess."

If the metal cursor covers the line, even if one follows the way it's done in the the video, there's no guarantee that the sighting and positioning of the cursor is the same every time. They may be more accurate than sighting from the side of the cursor.

Since I don't own the accessory, may be my interpretation of how it's supposed to be used is off.
 

 

[TSO_Products]

May be I'm missing the technique, I don't see how the video resolves the OP's query:

"Because on the metric ruler, the cursor is thicker (wider) than the lines on the ruler, so when the cursor is above the line, there is no way to know if it is centered, one can only guess."

If the metal cursor covers the line, even if one follows the way it's done in the the video, there's no guarantee that the sighting and positioning of the cursor is the same every time. They may be more accurate than sighting from the side of the cursor.

Since I don't own the accessory, may be my interpretation of how it's supposed to be used is off.

[member=57948]ChuckS[/member] - you misunderstand completely - but thanks to your sketch(!), I now understand how difficult it is to communicate something I thought was so simple.

You make me rethink how we can get everyone to understand the underlying simple concept: using only the "edge" of the cursor as a sight line to align exactly over the transition between the LINE of the scale and the beginning of the blue background. This eliminates parallax as well as any error from the "thickness" of the Cursor or the engraved line 

Hans

 

[ChuckS]

Hans,

I totally got it now after you clarified that the edge was used to align the cursor, as that wasn't obvious (to me) in the video.

Thanks for your quick response (on a Sunday!).

Happy Holidays,

 

[MikkelF]

[member=59331]TSO Products[/member]

I gave it another shot last weekend but Im still not feeling I have enough precision using the guides - especially when I use two together. Too big an error margin for my preference. I have this very rough example of how it could be easily solved where no guessing / ensure you look at the exact same angle / reflection problems etc. would exists:

View attachment 1

May be I'm missing the technique, I don't see how the video resolves the OP's query:

"Because on the metric ruler, the cursor is thicker (wider) than the lines on the ruler, so when the cursor is above the line, there is no way to know if it is centered, one can only guess."

If the metal cursor covers the line, even if one follows the way it's done in the the video, there's no guarantee that the sighting and positioning of the cursor is the same every time. They may be more accurate than sighting from the side of the cursor.

Since I don't own the accessory, may be my interpretation of how it's supposed to be used is off.

[member=57948]ChuckS[/member] - you misunderstand completely - but thanks to your sketch(!), I now understand how difficult it is to communicate something I thought was so simple.

You make me rethink how we can get everyone to understand the underlying simple concept: using only the "edge" of the cursor as a sight line to align exactly over the transition between the LINE of the scale and the beginning of the blue background. This eliminates parallax as well as any error from the "thickness" of the Cursor or the engraved line 

Hans

 

[ChuckS]

Setting something by sight is never going to be as accurate and consistent as using some kind of a stop. Lighting, eye sight, position of head, etc. can all contribute to inconsistency between cuts.

Some claim that they can make repetitive and precise cuts by using the cursor line on the Domino Joiner to align with the placement lines. Personally, I have met or known my share of Domino Joiner users, but none of them has been able to do that in a consistent fashion. The only "more" reliable way of making identical cuts is to register a work with the paddles. But even then, something can go wrong due to user errors such as applying uneven pressure during registration.

 

[Packard]

I make sure I am standing directly over the cursor (is that the right word? "Indicator"?) so that there is no parallax.  As long as I do that, I have no problems with the indicator. 

 

[Coen]

Setting something by sight is never going to be as accurate and consistent as using some kind of a stop. Lighting, eye sight, position of head, etc. can all contribute to inconsistency between cuts.

Some claim that they can make repetitive and precise cuts by using the cursor line on the Domino Joiner to align with the placement lines. Personally, I have met or known my share of Domino Joiner users, but none of them has been able to do that in a consistent fashion. The only "more" reliable way of making identical cuts is to register a work with the paddles. But even then, something can go wrong due to user errors such as applying uneven pressure during registration.

In this context the definition of 'precise cuts' is probably pretty important. What you and I define as 'precise' is probably next level compared to what 'most people' use that for.

 

[Packard]

I am reminded of the very pricy bamboo slide rule (with plastic facings).  The crosshair was purported to be a black widow spider's web stretched and glued to the plastic because it was impossible (back then) to mill a fine enough groove for the cross-hair. 

I suppose the markings could be laser engraved and a clear plastic cover with a cross-hair could be made. 

But standing directly over the indicator (so that your nose aligns with the indicator) will eliminate parallax.  I decided to nudge up to the white markings as the markings are pretty thick.  I suppose moving the edge to the center of the marking would be more consistent.  Or finer markings. 

But for the work I do, the markings are fine.  I'm not a machinist; I'm a woodworker.  If you want to use machinists' tolerances, you need a milling machine and aluminum stock, not a track saw and plywood.

 

[ChuckS]

In this context the definition of 'precise cuts' is probably pretty important. What you and I define as 'precise' is probably next level compared to what 'most people' use that for.

Agreed.

I've tried using the 0.3mm, 0.5mm and 0.7mm pencil leads to mark placement lines to see if I could really make the DF500's cursor line/sighting method work. Regardless of what I tried, I have had about 50% - 60% success rate.

Using the paddles? 95% or higher; cross stop, 90% or higher.

I'm here talking about using only the narrow width setting to cut mating mortises.

 

[Svar]

Setting something by sight is never going to be as accurate and consistent as using some kind of a stop. Lighting, eye sight, position of head, etc. can all contribute to inconsistency between cuts.

Parallel guides do use a stop. The question here is not whether to use it but how to set the stop initially using the scale.
And yes, [member=69715]MikkelF[/member] , transparent window with a hairline is the way to go. Easiest to read and the best way to avoid parallax because your hairline is touching the surface of the scale.

 

[Svar]

I am reminded of the very pricy bamboo slide rule (with plastic facings).  The crosshair was purported to be a black widow spider's web stretched and glued to the plastic because it was impossible (back then) to mill a fine enough groove for the cross-hair. 

Spider's web? This is odd. Would black hair be easier to obtain? Regardless, there is no need for milling. Just slice/scratch it with sharp blade, make it as fine as you want.

 

[MikkelF]

Exactly Svar. I bought these tools because I wanted to do fast, accurate and repeatable cuts on my sheet goods.
Right now it’s only the last part that is checked off on that last, which is a shame since it’s very close to check all 3 off on the list.

Currently I find myself spending more time trying to get both stops aligned to make a precise cut compared to just mark with a pencil and cut. I also had several boards I had to resaw afterwards because I didn’t get the stops dialed in exactly the same - or not precise enough on the mm.

If TSO updated the stops with the hairline crosshair they would work like a charm and I would be a very happy camper again. I really love all my other TSO products.

Regarding the sightline precision for the Domino: I have yet to fail with a domino using the crosshair (tight setting), but I still prefer to use the paddles simply for the ease of use. Personally I can’t see how you couldn’t get that perfect every time unless your crosshair is not calibrated properly or your Domino slides while routing the mortise. I see many other “UX-issues” with the Domino machine like unintentional thru-mortises or when you forget to mortise from the right face of the board …Been through all of them plenty of times while getting to know my machine  [big grin]

 

[Svar]

If TSO updated the stops with the hairline crosshair they would work like a charm and I would be a very happy camper again. I really love all my other TSO products.

I think old pointers could be swapped for a new design. I would even consider shop made ones.

 

[Jason.L.Hagen]

There is also the issue of making sure both stops are exactly the same. If they aren’t and you use the 3000 rail vs 1400, your board could be be quite a few millimeters (or sixteenths) off.

 

[MikkelF]

There is also the issue of making sure both stops are exactly the same. If they aren’t and you use the 3000 rail vs 1400, your board could be be quite a few millimeters (or sixteenths) off.

Yeah, thats exactly one of the problems I have experienced and why I don’t feel I can rely on it as it is right now. Just to big a chance to be a few milimeters off as it is now. I can make an upgrade like that in my shop but I can understand Im not the only one so maybe TSO will take a closer look at it and come with an “upgrade” we can buy into