Shaper Origin, is it worth it? and how accurate is it really?

[Gregor]

To be precide about Shaper Origin: In case TTS would have integrated ShaperTools (the same way they did with eg. Schneider Airsystems) to have them follow their 'values' (in the sense of treating customers more like valued partners instead of victims) by offering the same guarantees as with Festool products:

• 3 years warranty no questions asked to demonstrate confidence in the product
• 10 years spare parts availability after product EOL or the successor tool for free to demonstrate confidence in the company
• and (important) a sane ToS that strikes a balance between company and customer to demonstrate business integrity

I would have gotten one the day it became available in Europe. But sadly that didn't happen.

Knowing that I probably only have another 40 years on this planet, I've decided to concern myself with more pressing priorities.

I reckon about the same timeframe (or half a decade more) to be left for me, but I noticed that most people follow your stance and as I think Edmund Burke nailed it with “The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing” I decided against being passive as that brings a too high likelyhood of having to spend the last 30+ years of my life in the dystopic nightmare that is logical consequence of a world where ownership has been abolished and everything is just temporarily licensed in an attempt to feed the insatiable greed of rentiers. Indifference about stuff like this is one of the worst paths to follow in my perspective, at least in case one looks farer into the future than the next quarter.

Hence I decided to voice my disagreement with ToS like the one from Shaper Origin, in the hopes that they'll see the light and change them (and it would likely be enough to have the ToS reflect the practice they claim to be doing anyway)... so I can continue to vote with my wallet, just then through opening it.

Till then their ToS is their written testemony that they don't care about me, that I'm just a resource to be exploited to the maximum extend possible - I see no point in supporting an entity that, in an attempt to bind me with it, puts such a stance into writing.

YMMV... but honestly: IMHO it really shouldn't.

 

[bkharman]

[mention]Gregor [/mention] I am guessing you don’t work in software.

Remember this tool is run on software. Many of these items were to protect them as a very small startup with a big project. Should they adopt the TTS ToS there will be other changes that come about. I feel like you have put them in a “can’t win” category for your own reasons.

I have felt with them at a personal level and they aren’t out here to screw us over. Bad choice in picking lawyers?  Maybe. Bad job by TTS to either not fix or change the ToS entirely?  Also maybe.

I have even less on this earth than both of you and choose to spend my time and money on things I find interesting, entertaining or beneficial to me. I have a little bit of all three in one package. Guess I am more of a glass half full kind of guy.

Cheers. Bryan.

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[ryanjg117]

[member=53905]Gregor[/member], I do appreciate your perspective and observance of legalese. Like (I'm sure) most, I simply accept the ToS without even looking at them -- same for every EULA I've ever come across. Many EULAs have been deemed unenforceable - here is one such circumstance that would seem to apply to Shaper:

Certain reasons have been put forward for making End User License Agreements unenforceable. One is the fact that usually, the terms in the contract are not negotiable, as a user needs to agree to them before they can be granted access. Also, most users never even come in contact with the EULA until after purchase, with no information as to a possible refund if the user rejects the terms. This is why EULAs are also called shrink-wrap agreements or click-through agreements. Source

Of course, this concerns U.S. law and Europe has much more in the way of consumer protections.

As [member=21412]bkharman[/member] noted, this kind of language is common in the software industry. I'd guess $10 that Shaper hired a San Francisco law firm that also represents much of silicon valley and started with a ToS template used by many SaaS companies.

 

[Gregor]

[mention]Gregor [/mention] I am guessing you don’t work in software.

Sorry, you guessed wrong.

Remember this tool is run on software.

As does my car - but that software license is bound to the car, is not revokable and Toyota have not had the audacity of trying to grant themselves the ability to limit my access to my car whenever they feel like it because whynot.

I feel like you have put them in a “can’t win” category for your own reasons.

No, they are in the hey guys, your ToS is completely unacceptable because $reasons, please change it to what you say you'll do anyway and tomorrow morning I'll be the first to buy your product category.

I have felt with them at a personal level and they aren’t out here to screw us over. Bad choice in picking lawyers?  Maybe. Bad job by TTS to either not fix or change the ToS entirely?  Also maybe.

My impression too, maybe, maybe.

But their ToS still is as it is, as long as it states that what I paid for can be taken away by them for no reason and without compensation (= is not mine)... no sale.

 

[peter halle]

Hey how about we keep this thread about what the original poster asked about.  If you want to talk about all the other stuff, start a new thread.

Peter Halle - Moderator

 

[Cochese]

Saw a video today from Michael Alm that showed him using it for the first time, and it's not error-free. Thought that was interesting, and the thoughts about having to actually rout everything yourself is a fair point. Most of the things I could think of a use for are multiples or intricate things where I wouldn't want to be hunched over a table for an hour.

A 1000mm X-Carve is roughly the same price and can work largely unattended. It does require the physical space to use. If I had to choose one it would be the X-Carve, provided I did have that space.

 

[dsweetser]

Back to the original question. "is it worth it?" Depends on your application . I purchased it to do inlays (our company logo)  in hardwood flooring in the entrances of our apartment buildings. Take the tool to the work. There is a learning curve like any computer driven tool. I am still practicing. "how accurate is it really?" Very. I have always believed in the right tool for the job.

 

[ear3]

I've never tried the comprehensively measure the precision of the SO, but I can tell you that I regularly operate within .002 increments when I'm using it.  So for example, I just used it to make the cut outs for the threaded inserts I'm using for my elm table project:

[attachimg=1]

Setting the SO to cut to the exact dimensions of the insert (as per the downloadable CAD design from the manufacturer) made the fit a bit too snug.  So I dialed in a .002 offset from the cut line, and that made the fit perfect.  The ability to do those offsets is one of the greatest features of the machine, as you can adjust in real time to get the optimal fit.

 

[_pwawmo_]

That does seem like quite a neat feature, the ability to adjust offsets on the fly.. Is 0.002" the smallest incremental change you can make, or does it let you go even finer than that if you want to?

 

[Cheese]

That does seem like quite a neat feature, the ability to adjust offsets on the fly.. Is 0.002" the smallest incremental change you can make, or does it let you go even finer than that if you want to?

I believe the Origin is capable of an offset of .001". Knowing Edward, he probably initially dialed in a .001" offset, didn't like it and then dialed in the .002" offset.

An interesting experiment would be to measure the pocket size before and after the offset to determine the accuracy of the Origin.

 

[ear3]

[member=44099]Cheese[/member] That is exactly what I did!

That does seem like quite a neat feature, the ability to adjust offsets on the fly.. Is 0.002" the smallest incremental change you can make, or does it let you go even finer than that if you want to?

I believe the Origin is capable of an offset of .001". Knowing Edward, he probably initially dialed in a .001" offset, didn't like it and then dialed in the .002" offset.

An interesting experiment would be to measure the pocket size before and after the offset to determine the accuracy of the Origin.

 

[Cochese]

I've been doing more and more research on this thing and can admit when I'm wrong. It looks great. One video I watched today showed me a specific use-case for me, the FLW-inspired designs I wanted to incorporate on my last project and ultimately settled for a simpler version.

It really would be a perfect case for me in my small shop, I just can't afford it right now. $1500? Yeah, I'd make that happen somehow. I'm still going to try and make it happen eventually, but it won't be in time for these upcoming projects I have planned.

 

[bkharman]

I've been doing more and more research on this thing and can admit when I'm wrong. It looks great. One video I watched today showed me a specific use-case for me, the FLW-inspired designs I wanted to incorporate on my last project and ultimately settled for a simpler version.

It really would be a perfect case for me in my small shop, I just can't afford it right now. $1500? Yeah, I'd make that happen somehow. I'm still going to try and make it happen eventually, but it won't be in time for these upcoming projects I have planned.

Curious as to FLW?  Happy to chat about things. I have about 2 dozen projects under belt with it.

Cheers. Bryan.

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[TwelvebyTwenty]

This looks like a really clever toy/tool I'd quite like to own. However, maybe I'm stating the obvious, but isn't the main disadvantage with this (in comparison to a flat bed CNC machine) that you have to drive it yourself through contact time, rather than just letting it do its thing as you get on with another part of the build?

 

[bkharman]

This looks like a really clever toy/tool I'd quite like to own. However, maybe I'm stating the obvious, but isn't the main disadvantage with this (in comparison to a flat bed CNC machine) that you have to drive it yourself through contact time, rather than just letting it do its thing as you get on with another part of the build?

100%. Where this excels for me is taking it to the work. Inlays in a table or already installed floor. Also a space saver.

These were the reasons I invested in this vs. a 8*4 CNC in my shop.

Cheers. Bryan.

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[TwelvebyTwenty]

So essentially people probably shouldn't be comparing it to a traditional CNC in the same way you wouldn't compare a pillar drill with an 18v hand drill, even though they both drill holes. Separate use cases and the decision should be driven by your workflow rather the the specific ability of the tool.

 

[Cochese]

I've been doing more and more research on this thing and can admit when I'm wrong. It looks great. One video I watched today showed me a specific use-case for me, the FLW-inspired designs I wanted to incorporate on my last project and ultimately settled for a simpler version.

It really would be a perfect case for me in my small shop, I just can't afford it right now. $1500? Yeah, I'd make that happen somehow. I'm still going to try and make it happen eventually, but it won't be in time for these upcoming projects I have planned.

Curious as to FLW?  Happy to chat about things. I have about 2 dozen projects under belt with it.

Cheers. Bryan.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Frank Lloyd Wright, Prairie School, etc. Latest project had an attempted inlay based on what may have been a Marion Mahony leaded glass design. Would like to do some more of that and some Harvey Ellis-inspired inlay going forward.

 

[rmwarren]

So essentially people probably shouldn't be comparing it to a traditional CNC in the same way you wouldn't compare a pillar drill with an 18v hand drill, even though they both drill holes. Separate use cases and the decision should be driven by your workflow rather the the specific ability of the tool.

[member=73278]TwelvebyTwenty[/member] you are spot on.

I own both, the Origin & a small Shapeoko3. Nearly everything I've done so far is small enough to fit on the SO3 but I have been deferring to the Origin.

It's utility just increased immensely with the release of the WorkStation. If anyone is considering the Origin & haven't seen this take a close look. 2 quite different examples:

[attachimg=1]

This is a shop fixture, downloaded the design from their file sharing hub and cut on WorkStation. It's an example of a somewhat complex design created in CAD or vector software. I made the add-on MDF table for the WS, it's 420MM by 300MM. Haven't tested the overall capacity but I'm guessing I could use double-sided tape to attach material around 24" by 12" to the table. This is actually larger than the SO3's capacity.

[attachimg=2]

This was (poorly) done using on-tool design and grid to create a 1.55" diameter hole placed in the dead center of a 3.5" blank, then using a 1.55" square to further modify one blank. All without leaving the shop or using a computer. I should have used a rectangle larger than 1.55" in Y to eliminate the clipped ends, instead I had to resort to a rasp).

For simple stuff, the on-tool design is huge for me. Even when designing more complex stuff on a computer there is no need to learn CAM, which is a huge time saver over a traditional CNC router.

As already noted, the downside is you must manually control the tool. For most of what I do, this is fine. YMMV

Also, research the gridding functionality. In short, you can scan your material, probe the edges to establish precise X/Y & zero, then "place" a grid on it that your designs will snap to. This enables things like adding mortises or tenons to already sized material, pockets for hardware, and so much more. You can make similar cuts with a lot of cartesian CNC routers, but it'll take you a lot more time.

Just my [2cents]...

RMW

 

[bkharman]

Richard. You are making me jealous. My SO Workstation doesn’t come till Aug/Sept timeframe

::crying::

Cheers. Bryan.

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[rmwarren]

Richard. You are making me jealous. My SO Workstation doesn’t come till Aug/Sept timeframe

::crying::

Cheers. Bryan.

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Sorry Bryan...  [poke]

I waited until the last day of the original preorder for the SO itself and regretted it. The WS was ordered < 3 hours after it hit the inbox.

Hang tough, it's worth the wait.

RMW