Should More Dealers be on Ebay and participate in third party discount programs

JohnDistai

Member
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Jan 2, 2010
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216

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James,

I am the original poster regarding the damaged rail.  I wasn't upset about it taking a week to get the part.  I was upset that it came damaged and that in my opinion the rail could have been more protected to prevent damage.  Also, keep in mind that everyone here plays up the service that they get.  That sets an expectation, and it may or may not set an unrealistic one.  That particular dealer sent the box out with a big hole in it (they put their fliers and possibly the 1080 rail into the box through the hole), and they have been incommunicado about fixing the damaged profile.  I had to do the legwork to get the part, but they got to collect the full commission on the item.  This really makes me angry since I had just ordered $3k worth of tools from them, and was well within my right to send the MFT back and request a new one, which probably would have exceeded any margin they had for the MFT.  I did offer them an opportunity to create a win-win situation and cement our relationship, where I would fix the table myself and not send it back.  In lieu of them paying shipping 3 ways, I asked them to provide some accessories.  It would have been cheaper for than shipping for them, and it would have shown me that they cared.  Well so far, no communication from the dealer, but I did receive the profile today from Festool.  I guess short term "grab-it-and-go-profit" beats a long term more profitable relationship.  It is really a pity, and a lousy business model in my opinion.

So if I had any complaints it would be that I didn't send the (expletive) MFT back and get my (expletive) money back, and that I didn't order from a different dealer.  I am really (expletive) angry now.

Shane, since you are reading this, thank you for following up and doing what that (insert some expletives here) dealer should have done.  I received the profile and am really glad that the Festool USA staff is providing good service and following up.  This does lead to a long term relationship.

As I finish typing this, I realize that I do have another complaint.  There seems to be attentive dealers on this forum.  I'm curious as to why they don't have a presence on eBay.  As much as Festool does not like discounting, third parties are providing "incentives", and if you time your purchases right, they can be steep.  Everyone gets paid the same, but unfortunately, it pushes us to use certain dealers.  I wasn't ready to purchase my Festools at this point, but the availability of the incentives pushed me over the edge.  To me, third party incentives are akin to states that do not have sales tax.  I would think that given the option, a buyer would buy locally from a dealer in a state with no sales tax as opposed to ordering online and avoiding the tax.  There is nothing Festool can do to control the third party influence.  I would appreciate it if higher quality dealers would get into avenues such as eBay and capture some of the market that they richly deserve.
 
John,

I certainly understand your frustration.  I am posting this as a member not a moderator.  Festool curtailed dealer's participation on Ebay a while back because some dealers were discounting.  That is not allowed here in North America based on the agreements that they have with Festool.  That is normal for many European companies.  The idea is that the dealers will prove themselves based on their service to the customers.  The policy has changed about using Ebay, but discounting is not allowed from the dealer's end from what I understand.  Perhaps other dealers will get involved now that the limitation has been lifted.  Time will tell.

A few weeks ago a dealer who is active here contacted me and asked if I would answer a few questions  and give some advice on the company's customer service and web site.  I had purchased Festools from this dealer.  We spent over an hour on the phone.  I gladly did it.  I would do it again.  That dealer was trying to make the experience for his customers better.  I prefer to deal with that dealer in my purchases via phone because I can get the interaction, questions, and insight.  I don't get treated any differently than you or anyone else here - i.e.  I don't get discounts or preferential treatment.

A few weeks ago I posted in a remote thread that I had purchased tools and later found out that they had not been registered.  I received a PM from a dealer here who has sold me goods terrified that his operation may have sold me the products.  That dealer was concerned that the procedures put in place had not been followed.  The purchases had been made from another dealer here.

Shopping around on Ebay is popular.  People who do that are dealing with computers forms and auto generated replies.  For dealers who have an established, successful business history, it does add cost to do that.  I can honestly say that I, as a member here, after seeing the extra time and effort put forth by the dealers here, can't see the logic in shopping for a random dealer on Ebay who hasn't proven themselves other than by having a website and then has no promise of non email customer service.  Call me crazy! [tongue]

Ebay is the modern equivalent of mail order.  Call or email with a complaint and you are rolling the dice that you will be dealing with someone who can speak your language so that you can understand or has the ability to make you happy.

I'm sorry that you have a bad experience.  My advice - find a dealer who cares.  You probably already know how to shorten the list.  If you want to save based on the Bing discount and deal with an unknown - please go for it.  All dealers sell for the same price.  How much - profit - they make is based on how they treat the customer.  Repeat business is the key.

Peter
 
Peter,

Thank you for the reply.

That particular dealer will not see any more business from me.  For the other dealers on here who do care, please look into creating eBay stores.  Festool is very pricey as we all know, and that Bing Cashback is hard to resist, especially when it gets to 10% or more.  When my Cashback is awarded I'll use it on Festool tools or accessories.  So the Festool purchase and supply chain gets my money gets AND Microsoft's money.  It is more sales for Festool, and more sales for you.  So for the reputable, quality dealers (and I don't mean ToolJester) please reconsider using eBay as a sales channel, at the very least while the Cashback stuff is going on.
 
JohnDistai said:
Peter,

Thank you for the reply.

That particular dealer will not see any more business from me.  For the other dealers on here who do care, please look into creating eBay stores.  Festool is very pricey as we all know, and that Bing Cashback is hard to resist, especially when it gets to 10% or more.  When my Cashback is awarded I'll use it on Festool tools or accessories.  So the Festool purchase and supply chain gets my money gets AND Microsoft's money.  It is more sales for Festool, and more sales for you.  So for the reputable, quality dealers (and I don't mean ToolJester) please reconsider using eBay as a sales channel, at the very least while the Cashback stuff is going on.

So other dealers should loose their profit margin so that you can buy your tools at a discount?  You can choose to shop for price or service, almost never both.  You made your decision and now you are knocking Festool for it.  Maybe next time you can choose more wisely.
 
You don't know what you are talking about.  And by the way, it is "lose", not "loose".

So what profit margin does the dealer lose?  The eBay final value fee?  So let's ask the dealers what they would prefer.  Dealers on this board, please tell us which you would prefer.  You can make the sale and have your margin reduced by an eBay final value fee, or lose the sale to another dealer and not pay the fee.  Which would you choose?  Perhaps you have an incentive for volume.  Would you choose to increase your volume if possible, if you could do it without a hit to your service?

This reminds me of some real estate transactions.  A buyer and a seller are arguing over some minor issue, let's say the amount to fix the issue is $1000.  They can't reach an agreement.  The Realtor stands to earn $5k on the transaction.  Does the Realtor say "I guess we can't come to a deal.  The deal is off" and lose the sale?  I guess if the Realtor is Kevin, then yes.  The smart Realtor says "let's quit arguing about this.  I'll pay the $1000 and let's close the deal!"  The smart Realtor pays $1000, but walks away with $4000.  Had they not done that, they would walk away with $0.  I don't know about you Kevin, but I'd much rather walk away from a transaction with some money instead of no money.

I am not knocking Festool for my decision to purchase from the dealer I purchased from.  I am very thankful to Festool for providing the great service that they did and getting me the part with no questions asked.  I AM, however, knocking the dealer.  I had no information as to the quality of this dealer, so I took my chances.  I got tools and a third party incentive, but the tools arrived damaged and I had to do the legwork to fix them.  That was the chance I took.  You may have taken the same chance given the lack of information available.  I'm sure others on this board took the same chance and were thrilled with the outcome.
I'm not saying my outcome was particularly bad.  One tool was damaged, and the other tools were packed with an absolute minimum of padding.  They weren't damaged per se, but they weren't cared for nearly as well as they should have been, especially for the expense of the item.

What I am asking for is other dealers to join in the fray on eBay. The Jester has a near monopoly on eBay.  There are some other, minor unknowns.  The third party discount does drive sales.  There is no denying or getting around that.  Incentives drive behavior.  As you look at this forum, and other posts, there are concerns about price.  Last year about this time, McFeeley's posted information about an upcoming price change.  At this point in the year, people are waiting to purchase, hoping to see a price decrease.  I was waiting too, and would have waited next year until I learned that there was a third party discount.  That third party discount wasn't going to last forever, and I figured that the potential for a third party discount would hedge against any future discounts that Festool would provide.  Buying now would hedge against a price increase.  Incentives drive purchasing behavior.  There is no getting around that.  I don't know how many times I have to type this.  Higher quality dealers are losing sales to a lower quality dealer due to a third party incentive.  Sad, but true.  Is there a way to combat it?  Yes, get in the game and compete with the Jester.  I think that readers of this forum would always choose the Bob's and Tom's over the Jester when all the financial incentives are equal. 

Whether you want to eschew a third party discount or not is your choice, Kevin.  Higher quality dealers are losing sales because of this.  It's a third party discount, and Festool can't do anything about it.  If you can't beat them, join them.  Join the Jester on his turf and you will beat him.  We all benefit.  People like Kevin can still choose to buy tools outside of eBay though and forgo the third party discount so that nobody will have to pay eBay final value fees.
 
Damaged profile of a brand new MFT during shipping ? And the dealer doesnt want to do a thing about it ?

Well, even if some people think it's the shipping company who's faulty in this case, it is not : the dealer not only should but HAS to get you the item your ordered in perfect conditions. Then he will have to deal with the shipping company to get a refund. Many cases like that went to court and the judge always always did put the responsability of the situation on the dealer's shoulders. The only thing the customer has to do is notify the seller as soon as possible of the kind of damage by taking pictures for example. That's why I respect a lot the dealers on this forum who will often put all they have (not only money) in their businesses and have to deal with faulty tools (not Festools of course :), shipping damages, etc..

Cheers,

Alex
 
To be fair to the Jester, it wasn't that they wouldn't do anything about it.  I called Festool USA Repair myself and they sent me a new one immediately, no questions asked.  That is tremendous service, and I am very thankful for it.  I asked the dealer to follow up to ensure that the part was coming.  I never heard back from them.  I did receive the part from Festool just when they predicted it would arrive.  Again, no word from the dealer.

The MFT box did leave the Jester's warehouse with a big hole in it.  It wasn't the side where the profile was damaged.  It was on one of the ends.  Inside the box I found their "Fooliday" fliers.  The tape and staples on the box were intact.  So they shoved their propaganda into a damaged box and sent it out.  Great care and pride in what they sell.  That is why I'm asking for other dealers to give the Jester competition in their court - eBay.
 
JohnDistai, I think you're making a big fuzz here about nothing. Accidents happen. Festool replaced the part asap.

It seems to me you're just complaining here because that dealer didn't come crawling on his knees to you to beg your forgiveness and throw in a couple of goodies to buy off his 'alleged' guilt.  ::)
 
Alex said:
JohnDistai, I think you're making a big fuzz here about nothing. Accidents happen. Festool replaced the part asap.

It seems to me you're just complaining here because that dealer didn't come crawling on his knees to you to beg your forgiveness and throw in a couple of goodies to buy off his 'alleged' guilt.  ::)

Maybe so Alex but....part of the price of all Festool products is good service, it's in the dealer's service agreement with Festool.
 
You are welcome to think that.  Accidents happen, but sending out a box with an obvious hole in it and then stuffing your propaganda into the hole isn't an accident.  Its carelessness.  The dealer has my money, and hopes I just accept it and move on.  I hope that those of you who are contractors don't treat your customers like this.  Once you get that check, transaction complete.  If there is a problem, too bad.  I already have my money.

Yes, I wanted some free stuff for my time and effort for fixing a problem that they should have fixed.  I find it disappointing that some of you think that the customer should pay full price, and take their time to fix the problem on their own without any consideration.  You as the dealer aren't doing your job, but you still want to be paid full price for it.  If I have to do part of your job, then I want to be compensated for that because I already paid you for the job that you didn't do! Accessories are a good compromise.

I don't know how many times I have to hint at this, but Festool was not responsible for the dealer's carelessness.  Who knows who damaged the profile.  Yes, Festool paid for it.  But was it really their responsibility?  Probably not, but they still paid the price for it.  I don't think it would have been fair to charge me for the item, but then again I'm not sure who the charge should have gone to.

I think that others are either missing or ignoring my other point.  There are powerful third party incentives that have an effect on purchasing behavior.  Our great Uncle Sam is providing "tax credits" for energy efficient windows and doors.  I bet the window installers on this forum have seen an increase in the demand for windows, and their sales are up.  That's a third party incentive.

Our rich Uncle Billy wants to advertise a search engine and overtake Google.  He's willing to share some of his advertising costs with you if you are in the market to buy something.  Many of us are in the market to buy something and don't want to ignore this incentive.  The Jester rules the sales kingdom where this incentive is available.  The Jester gets sales that he may not deserve, not because of his doing, but because of a third party incentive.  I am asking for other dealers to join the Jester in his court, and to take over his kingdom.  I think this is a great opportunity, and I don't know why others are so ambivalent about this.  Has capitalism died and I didn't get the memo?
 
John, I'm not missing your point about third party discounts. It's just that I'm not going ask my dealer to cut into his profit so I can save a few bucks. I look at as I'm supporting the Johny come lately ebay dealer who doesn't mind sharing his profit with ebay at the expense of customer service. I'm supporting the established dealer that has built a well deserved reputation of good service and I'm willing to allow his to make money on his end too. Here's basically what you're saying to the well respected dealer...I want your great service and I'm will to cut into your profits to get it.

Trust me, I understand the idea of saving a buck. However, everything has a value, including good service. I expect people to pay me what I think is fair for my good work and I'm willing to do the same in return.
 
Dealers - The Jester had $16.5k in Festool sales year-to-date.  Think about that.  Six weeks worth of data.  If that rate were to continue, that's $143k in sales.  Add in an incentive from our rich Uncle Billy, and if buyers use that incentive to purchase more Festools, that may be another $11k in sales.

Quality dealers - this is $143k in low hanging fruit.  How could you ignore it?  Please stop ignoring eBay as a sales channel and do all of us a favor.  Give us a choice of dealers without making us choose whether or not to get an incentive.  We should be able to get both.  Everyone wins!  I've provided you a seed of data.  How you plant and cultivate it is up to you.

I'll stop now.
 
Brice Burrell said:
John, I'm not missing your point about third party discounts. It's just that I'm not going ask my dealer to cut into his profit so I can save a few bucks. I look at as I'm supporting the Johny come lately ebay dealer who doesn't mind sharing his profit with ebay at the expense of customer service. I'm supporting the established dealer that has built a well deserved reputation of good service and I'm willing to allow his to make money on his end too. Here's basically what you're saying to the well respected dealer...I want your great service and I'm will to cut into your profits to get it.

Trust me, I understand the idea of saving a buck. However, everything has a value, including good service. I expect people to pay me what I think is fair for my good work and I'm willing to do the same in return.

Brice, I may be wrong about this Bing scheme but I get the impression that the dealer makes his full price just like a normal sale. In fact, it is a normal sale from the dealer's point of view, it's just that it is a sale via ebay Buy it Now. I don't think the dealer has to give any discount. Microsoft/Bing refunds a percentage to the buyer.

If that's true I don't see how it would hurt dealers to participate. However, as long as one dealer does participate it hurts all those who don't. In that case, all dealers should pile on and milk Microsoft. The net affect is that the Festool buying public has an 8% larger tool buying budget.
 
Yes!  Someone finally understands the point I am trying to make!  Thank you Michael!

When buying tools with Bing, there is no discount that the dealer eats.  My CT-22 cost $505.  However, Microsoft rebated me back $40 (8%).  If I would have bought a Kapex this weekend, I would have paid $1300, with a $130 rebate pending (10%).  The value of the rebate fluctuates by the day.  I think it is foolish to ignore the injection of money by a third party.  We all win!  The only problem is is that one dealer is in the right place at the right time and getting all the sales for this.  If others join the fray, they can get the sales!
 
Michael Kellough said:
Brice Burrell said:
John, I'm not missing your point about third party discounts. It's just that I'm not going ask my dealer to cut into his profit so I can save a few bucks. I look at as I'm supporting the Johny come lately ebay dealer who doesn't mind sharing his profit with ebay at the expense of customer service. I'm supporting the established dealer that has built a well deserved reputation of good service and I'm willing to allow his to make money on his end too. Here's basically what you're saying to the well respected dealer...I want your great service and I'm will to cut into your profits to get it.

Trust me, I understand the idea of saving a buck. However, everything has a value, including good service. I expect people to pay me what I think is fair for my good work and I'm willing to do the same in return.

Brice, I may be wrong about this Bing scheme but I get the impression that the dealer makes his full price just like a normal sale. In fact, it is a normal sale from the dealer's point of view, it's just that it is a sale via ebay Buy it Now. I don't think the dealer has to give any discount. Microsoft/Bing refunds a percentage to the buyer.

If that's true I don't see how it would hurt dealers to participate. However, as long as one dealer does participate it hurts all those who don't. In that case, all dealers should pile on and milk Microsoft. The net affect is that the Festool buying public has an 8% larger tool buying budget.

Ebay fees cut into the dealers profit, not the Bring discount.

I get what you're saying, these would be sales the established dealers aren't getting now and they might get some new life long customers. It could be worth while. I'm just not asking the good dealers to do more than they already are to earn my business. I respect your position on this issue so I hope my (strongly expressed) opinion isn't too offensive. 
 
Remember the old saying "Nothing in life is free"?  I don't sell on ebay.  I know there is a fee.  Knowing nothing about the Bing program, here is some info I came up with that you might find interesting.  I have added the bolding.

"Cashback? is Bing?s product to entice users to search for their purchases through Bing, and to make Bing a more attractive engine for advertisers.  By using a portion of an advertiser?s ad spend to pay rebates to customers who use Bing, shoppers get a discount, advertisers get more buyers (without cutting into their bottom line), and Bing gets more users.  Given the nature of the arrangement, more and more advertisers are joining Cashback, but there are some management concerns that every Cashback-enabled advertiser needs to know.

1. Deal Websites Make Up A Huge Portion of Traffic

The goal of Cashback is to get more users to make Bing as their regular shopping-related destination.  But most of the increase in traffic that we?ve seen thus far has come from deal websites and forums, where users will post that if you search for a specific keyword, you?ll get a percentage off at an advertiser.  What usually follows is a deluge of traffic on a keyword or small set of keywords.  This effect isn?t inherently good or bad: in many cases, we?ve seen traffic (and costs) spike, and there is a commensurate increase in sales.  In other cases, costs will rise and the keyword will become grossly inefficient.  But this effect does a few things.

First, data for that keyword is now meaningless: its performance is no longer driven by the natural search behavior of users.  Second, if the term suddenly has great performance, it?s important to keep the keyword?s bid in check when the deluge stops: a term for which you should pay $0.50 shouldn?t be bid $2 in response to the influx of forum traffic, because you?ll be burned when the traffic stops (and you shouldn?t pay $2 even when the traffic is coming).  Third, it forces more attention to be paid to MSN, the smallest engine, to make sure costs don?t run away on a single term.

2. Direct Links From Forums Can Circumvent Tracking

In many cases, forums will post Cashback-related deals tied to a specific keyword that a user has discovered.  In recent cases, however, users will post links that send the user directly to Cashback, bypassing the advertiser?s (or agency?s) tracking.  The effect is twofold: first, depending on how their tracking is set up, the advertiser is likely no longer able to tell that the traffic is coming from Bing, since it skips tracking appended to URLs and tracking that is dependent on an agency?s redirect server.  Instead of seeing a spike in traffic and a spike in PPC sales, there?s just silence.

Second, because the Cashback piggy bank is paid for by a portion of an advertisers ad spend, this direct traffic will deplete the funds in the piggy bank without contributing to it.  Because of the lack of tracking information, it?s important to keep an eye on sales (and the piggy bank) at all times.  Without careful management, this can create a problem due to the third issue.

Bing has told us that direct links should no longer work for Cashback sometime around October 15th, and we?ll provide an update once it?s confirmed that the situation has changed.  Until then, advertisers who are on Cashback should make it a priority to check whether or not their website is generating sales that aren?t being properly tracked, and should make sure that their piggy bank is in good health.

3. Microsoft Holds Advertisers Ultimately Responsible For the Funds in the Piggy Bank

Provided that your Cashback percentage is set intelligently, the ad spend you incur should offset the sales that are generated through Cashback-enabled ads.  But should an imbalance be created and go unresolved, Microsoft will invoice the advertiser in 30 days for the negative balance in the Piggy Bank.

This is understandable.  Microsoft shouldn?t be on the hook for huge discounts that retailers offer ? there?s no reason for them to foot the bill for a company?s sale.  But rather than turn off an advertiser?s ads when a large imbalance occurs, or even throw a number of red flags, MSN lets the ads continue to run and simply bills the advertiser later.


Coupled with the previous issue that we?ve noticed ? shoppers using direct links that circumvent advertiser tracking and the piggy bank ? this creates the possibility of making the advertiser responsible for huge discounts on traffic they didn?t know existed.  It is entirely possible that sales will spike many-fold and you?re left unaware of the situation until Microsoft sends you the bill.

Update: In response to this post, Bing pointed out that they send a weekly email with the status of your piggy bank and they are happy to talk with advertisers about improving the performance of their campaigns. These reports show the number of clicks, the amount of transactions and the amount owed in rewards vs the remaining funds in the piggy bank.

We believe that it is critically important that advertisers read and understand these reports. The volume of submitted Cashback rebates can spike suddenly due to traffic from forums and deal websites. Bing will not stop your piggy bank from running into the negative; should it do so, advertisers can later be billed for the amount they owe in rewards.

We?ll leave it for others to decide whether or not, carefully managed, this can be a profitable business model for them: theoretically, you could capitalize on the possibility of forum traffic by setting a high Cashback percentage, raking in the sales, and simply paying back Bing for the traffic.  In this case, you would set your Cashback rebate to whatever your A/S target ought to be: if your cost-to-sales target is 20%, simply pay Bing 20% for the sales they?ve helped generate by setting a Cashback percentage of 20%.  But we feel that this is more similar to affiliate marketing than PPC, and we?d prefer that Cashback traffic come from searchers who choose to use Bing, rather than deal-seekers who bypass Bing altogether.

4. Fraud Can Become A Problem

We?ve seen two main sources of user fraud when our clients have opted into Cashback.

First, users will make purchases with the intent of getting Cashback discounts, and then return the item later.  The Cashback waiting period is 60 days, so advertisers who who have return policies longer than 60 days are especially at risk of having users make large purchases and then return the items later.  For those who have shorter return periods, it is crucial that the retailer set up an arrangement (most likely a feed) with Bing to report to them orders that are returned so that those funds are not depleted from the piggy bank.  Bing has made it clear to us that it is (understandably) the responsibility of the advertiser to deal with returns.

Second, users would use Cashback and buy gift cards in huge amounts ? greater than $1000, and sometimes as high as $5000 ? and receive Cashback on the gift card purchase.  After receiving the card, the users would then return to the site and make another purchase using the card, receiving Cashback a second time.  This creates an large imbalance between the funds entering and the funds leaving the piggy bank, since users are making expensive purchases (twice) without generating an appreciable amount in costs.  Many retailers (smartly) exclude gift cards from Cashback eligibility.

5.  Don?t Run Your Brand Terms on Cashback

It?s not smart to opt your Brand terms into Cashback.  None of our clients have done so ? we urge them not to.  The primary reason for this is due to the same piggy bank balancing that?s required to properly run a Cashback campaign.  Brand keywords are cheap to run.  Even if your total costs on brand terms are quite high, the conversion rate on brand terms is typically much, much higher than it is for non-brand terms.  By including brand keywords in Cashback, you?re going to be paying high rebate amounts out of your piggy bank with a disproportionately low level of associated costs to refund the bank.  You might find yourself quickly in the red ? something that Bing told us has happened to other retailers.

Conclusion

Whether or not Cashback is Bing?s ticket to challenging Google in the world of search is debatable.  We?ve written previously that with clever marketing, Bing could overtake Google in the world of shopping-related search.  The issues we?ve outlined here aren?t crippling to Cashback, and they can all be successfully managed.  It?s just important that advertisers do so."

So, to sell thru ebay costs money.  Then participating in this program has its cost.  I guess that it becomes a business decision of the dealer to see if participation warrants the risks.

Peter
 
Just to clarify, eBay is the advertiser.  The dealer is not.  An example of an advertiser would be if "1-800-Flowers" decided to offer a Cashback discount people purchasing flowers when they enter in flower-related keywords and the buyer clicks on that keyword and purchases flowers at the 1-800-Flowers website. 

eBay is the advertiser in this case.  And yes, there is an eBay listing and final value fee that eats into dealer profit.  Surely the commission is greater than the fee resulting in a net profit.  If it wasn't then I don't think the Jester would be foolish enough to sell on there.  There has to be an upside for the eBay seller.
 
And thank you for finding and posting that, Peter.  It was very informative.  I was curious how that program was funded.
 
Brice, I forgot about the ebay fees. Never sold anything.

Thanks Peter, even though that was painful to read.

I guess it's working okay for Jester but I'll won't encourage other dealers
to participate since I don't fully understand the process.
 
Hello everyone. First, I would like to thank everyone here, private individuals and dealers, for their contributions. I am new to Festool and learning a great deal from all of you.

Here are a few of my observations regarding competition among dealers. By mandating a strict pricing policy, Festool has made the playing field about as level as it could among dealers. However, we live in a capitalist, free market society and there will always be some person or corporation coming up with creative ways to increase sales and bring in customers from the competition.  Much has been made about  bing cashback being unfair to dealers not participating in it. Much of this is due to a lack of understanding on how the the offer works. Its simple, the only fees a seller pays are the regular ebay fees, there is no additional program for the seller to enroll in. An item being sold on ebay with a buy it now price is eligible for the cashback promotion. The item can even be used, as long as it has a buy it now price. If you go to bing.com and type in festool, a link to ebay comes up showing all the items eligible for cashback with a dollar sign. I almost bought a used Festool router that had a buy it now price for which I would have received cashback. Bill Gates pays the cashback to the buyer, it does not come out of the sellers pocket. Someone on woodnet posted about asking Grizzly to put a G1071 on ebay so the buyer can take advantage of the bing cashback offer.

Ebay dealers are not the only ones with a competitive advantage. Internet dealers have a competitive advantage over brick and mortar stores by offering out of state buyers free shipping and no sales tax. I would like to buy Festool's from dealers participating in this forum. They are all out of state. Because I have not used Festool's before I would have to go to a local store to try them out (eg. which sander to buy). Is it fair to Woodcraft and Rockler that someone comes in to their stores and test drives their equipment but then buys from an out of state dealer to avoid sales tax? No it is not, but that is the nature of the competitive marketplace we live in. Festool products are great products that cost 3-4 times more than competing products (although in some cases there is no competition). Add to that another 10% sales tax where I, and many others live, and its no wonder internet dealers are doing well. Now add 8% bing cashback (the percentage fluctuates) giving you a total of 18% savings is serious money. I understand that buying from a trustworthy dealer is important. But for many who can barely afford Festool items, an 18% savings on tools that  already cost 3-4 times more is a deciding factor. We are living in difficult economic times. Hobbyist woodworkers have less money to buy tools. Woodworkers using Festool items to make money are also being squeezed by customers. In todays economy 18% savings is huge.

A brick and mortar store has an advantage over internet retailers in that some buyers want to be able to shake hands with the person they are buying from. They want to see the product being brought out from the storage room and loaded into their car. We can't begrudge them this competitive advantage.

Every retailer offers their customer something unique. It should be left up to the individual customers to buy from retailers that offer the particular advantage that is important to them.

 
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