Sliding Table Saw Advice

[derekcohen]

Wow,  that's a lot of info to digest.  You guys here on FOG never disappoint.  The amount of knowledge and experience here is simply staggering.  I want to thank everyone that took the time to weigh in on my questions. It would seem that a  majority think going to a lower end saw,  just to get a sliding table,  would not be a wise move. After reading some of your responses,  I think in agree. In light of that,  I'm leaning towards giving the Sawstop sliding table a try... And of course I'll continue to save up (or at least attempt to) until i can afford a good slider.  I'm going to check around on FOG to see if anyone has done a comparison of the 2 different sliding tables that Sawstop offers.  Thanks again for all the info.  I really appreciate everyone's time.

?????????  Hmmmm.  I got the exact opposite opinion from reading the posts in this thread.  A vast majority thought the sliding table on the Hammer was far far far superior to the SawStop sliding table and that the Hammer slider far outweighed the safety feature of the SawStop itself.  So get the superior Hammer sliding table over getting the SawStop safety feature and its inferior sliding table.

Agreed. The SawStop sliding table is designed for crosscuts. It is not the same concept as a slider table saw, where the wagon does both crosscuts and ripping. Further, the edge of the table on the SS is quite far from the blade, while the slider is about 1/2" off the blade, and this increases precision and control in saw cuts. There is no way the SS is in the same league as my Hammer K3. I had these two saws side-by-side for a while, and came away with the K3. I would not change this decision 3 years down the track.

Regards from Perth

Derek

 

[ChuckM]

Some people think the sliding table saw is safe enough (not me. I don't think they can match the SawStop in terms of its finger-saving feature), but apparently some sliding saw manufacturers don't think so either. Apart from Felder's PCS, Altendorf is soon to release another kind of finger-saving system:


Like the PCS, no parts are damaged.

 

[MikeGE]

Some people think the sliding table saw is safe enough (not me. I don't think they can match the SawStop in terms of its finger-saving feature), but apparently some sliding saw manufacturers don't think so either. Apart from Felder's PCS, Altendorf is soon to release another kind of finger-saving system:

Like the PCS, no parts are damaged.

Unfortunately, you can't fix stupid.  One of the mechanical engineers where I used to work had two plaques over his desk with "Never design anything to be foolproof.  Fools are ingenious." and "If you design it to be idiot-proof, someone will make a better idiot."
I've been out of touch in what's available in Germany, but I wouldn't be surprised if these products are for the U.S. market.

 

[junk731]

Once Festool/Sawstop patents runout in a couple of years there will be a free for all once China ramps up production. Since they already produce the SawStopfor said company, they have everything they need. These unicorns produced by Felder and others are basically unobtainium for anyone without extremely deep pockets if they're even in production. Will that tech trickle down to lessor machines in there line will yet to be seen. I'll stick with my Felder K700SP and happily make cuts all day safely with my fingers far away from the blade and no awkward kickback situations inheritant with every non slider cabinet saw.

 

[Climber39]

Once Festool/Sawstop patents runout in a couple of years there will be a free for all once China ramps up production. Since they already produce the SawStopfor said company, they have everything they need. These unicorns produced by Felder and others are basically unobtainium for anyone without extremely deep pockets if they're even in production. Will that tech trickle down to lessor machines in there line will yet to be seen. I'll stick with my Felder K700SP and happily make cuts all day safely with my fingers far away from the blade and no awkward kickback situations inheritant with every non slider cabinet saw.

That was essentially my argument to my wife regarding the lack of any blade stopping tech on any of the sliders.  I have virtually zero experience with sliders. But from what I saw that one day I got to use one, is that the safety issue is somewhat negated. You're just not interacting with the blade in the same way that you are with a cabinet saw. And while I would love to have my Sawstop and a nice slider, that's just not in the cards financially.  And given the fact that I'm only a hobbyist,  the price tag on a really good slider almost puts it out of reach for the moment.  I think the best I can do for now,  is get the SS attachment,  Keep working, keep saving, and keep trying to sell my SS. Some of The Minimax and Hammer models are theoretically within reach...barely.
So hey,  if anyone is interested in a Sawstop ICS that's less than a year old and in pristine condition,  PM. Maybe we can work something out.  I'm in the Birmingham, Alabama area.  And we have a Kombi lift at our house. So safely loading up the saw would not be an issue.  And of anyone has a good slider that they would be interested in trading for a loaded Sawstop ICS31230-52,  please let me know. 

 

[ChuckM]

I've been out of touch in what's available in Germany, but I wouldn't be surprised if these products are for the U.S. market.

According to this, both the EU and the US (and Canadian?) markets will be covered:
https://www.woodshopnews.com/tools-machines/altendorfs-hand-guard-gets-closer-to-market

Ultimately, how successful such or similar technology will become is dependent on the market (and/or regulatory changes). The SawStop cabinet saws are now commonly accepted by those who have the budget and want one of them. Once all the SawStop key patents expire, we can expect in time that all major saw makers will produce and sell theirs with a similar safety feature.

I heard somewhere that other table saw brands have already produced prototypes and been looking at various ways to cut costs and improve their approaches. So some of them may not be direct copies of the SawStop. Those are still trade secrets of course. Competition and R&D investments like that will be beneficial to consumers.

 

[ChuckM]

Once Festool/Sawstop patents runout in a couple of years there will be a free for all once China ramps up production. Since they already produce the SawStopfor said company, they have everything they need.
Snip.

For the record, SawStop has its plant based in Taiwan. As far as I know, Made in Taiwan and Made in China products are not considered the same by the authorities when goods are imported.

The finger-saving feature is only one part of the equation when it comes to table saw performance and quality. It remains to be seen how other cabinet saw brands will compete with SawStop in the areas of price and sawing performance (precision and accuracy) after the patents expire, as well as how SawStop will respond to the market changes (lowering their prices is one possible scenario). Healthy competition is a good thing.

 

[junk731]

May find this interesting. Geetech does Sawstop and has manufacturing in China. China and the UN both consider Tiawan to be part of China.

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[ChuckM]

May find this interesting. Geetech does Sawstop and has manufacturing in China. China and the UN both consider Tiawan to be part of China.

Partnership has no relationship to origins whatsoever...and that's common knowledge.

Unless and until it has changed: "Every table saw is built in Taiwan to an unmatched set of tolerances."https://www.acmetools.com/blog/getting-know-sawstop/

If Bridge City Tools established a strategic partnership with Harvey instead of being purchased by Harvey, that wouldn't automatically mean that BCT Tools were made in China, or that Harvey's were made in the US.

Some people may, but I myself know of no woodworkers here who consider a machine made in Taiwan being the same as one made in China. This is not to say one is necessarily better than the other. Most cordless drills and most bench and floor machines are made in China, and many of them are great value.

But proper labeling is a serious matter. For example, food made in China cannot be labelled as made in Taiwan for sale here in Canada legally regardless of what the UN says. In various magazine tool reviews I came across, they assigned "T" for Taiwan, "C" for China, "M" for Mexico, etc. in the column for origin. Readers wanted to know the difference.

The US has different tax treatments on those two origins, too; higher for goods made in China.

 

[junk731]

I would suggest you do a little more research and understand these company/country relationships a lot better instead of spewing gibberish. You can believe whatever marketing BS you want as most Sawstop zealots do.

 

[ChuckM]

I'm least surprised by your general call for me to do more "research" when you have little else to present. By the way, the point of discussion is about the origin that "Made in Taiwan"and "Made in China" are not the same, not about SawStop per se.

 

[derekcohen]

I have two computerised machine, both from Nova: the Saturn lathe and the Voyager drill. Both are excellent, and have a great reputation for being reliable. That latter aspect still makes me nervous however. Call me a control freak, but I do not want a machine that succumbs to the ageing process, or needs specialist electrical input because a minor adjustment is made (I am 70, so these machines just need to last 20 years, which I reckon they will). The issue, nonetheless, is one of several factors that helped me choose a Hammer K3 over a SS. I had, and continue to read, stories of the cartridge firing off because of the wood being slightly wet, or a blade being changed. The unpredictability of the SS remains my concern. One of the positives of the K3 is peace of mind in regard to down time.

Machines scare me, in spite of using them for more than 3 decades. I respect their power, and I take every precaution to abide by the rules of safety. In the long run, I believe that this is a healthier learning experience and training ground than believing that there is no need to be obsessively cautious. SS sell a good promotion on safety. They are right to do so. However, there is a broader canvas here than they paint.

Regards from Perth

Derek