So sell me on li-ion batteries....

[jaegerhund]

I've been doing some research on the web about NiCd, NiMh, and Li-ion batteries and though it is a well discussed topic, I'm still left with a little fuzziness about why anyone should fork out more money for Li-ion batteries.  So who in the know can convince me (or not) ?

Justin

 

[Frank_M]

Well...
They are lighter...
They last longer...
They don't discharge nearly as fast as the older generation batteries...

When it comes to "forking over more money", I think they are competitively priced, but this is a personal decision you need to make.  All my battery powered tools are not lithium ion and would not even consider NiCad or NiMH regardless of brand...

Good enough?

 

[jaegerhund]

O.K.  Thanks Frank --- we're getting there.  I got you on the lighter and discharge benefits, but do they really last longer?  I think I've read that they "age" ----that is even without use, they degrade and have a relatively short shelf-life.  What about temperature (environmental) sensitivities?

I'm reaching for my checkbook, but....

Justin

 

[Frank_M]

Justin,

I think they have longer life in terms of number of charge/discharge cycles.  I heard some people complaining that certain brands did not perform well at cold temperatures.  I use mine in the shop, so no cold weather or other environmental factors to worry about.  If you work outside in cold temperatures you may want to research more.

Also, I think of these tools in terms of 4-5 yrs life cycle.  Newer models are so much better than the olders, there is enough motivation to upgrade in about that time frame.  Personally, I have never been able to kill any cordless drill batteries, I just don't use them that much, woodworking is just a hobby for me.  So far, I chose to sell my older model drills while they are worth something and upgrade rather than kill them and buy new ones.

O.K.  Thanks Frank --- we're getting there.  I got you on the lighter and discharge benefits, but do they really last longer?  I think I've read that they "age" ----that is even without use, they degrade and have a relatively short shelf-life.  What about temperature (environmental) sensitivities?

I'm reaching for my checkbook, but....

Justin

 

[jaegerhund]

Thanks Frank ---- I understand you on the tool cycle.

Justin

 

[Norm St.Onge]

I have Milwaukee V28's that have been bulletproof for 3+ years of professional use (drill, circ saw, sawzall, work light, radio). They live in my van year 'round (and I live in Vermont) and no sensitivity to cold, great run time and power, recharge in an hour.

I have the Makita LXT18V set-up for a drill and impact driver. Has lived in my van for 2 years without a hitch. Great power on the impact driver but run time could be better when driving many 4" plus lags. Occasionally they will not charge if I put them on a charger first thing on a sub-zero winter morning but this has been an inconsistent issue. Otherwise, they recharge in a half hour.

Bosch 10.8V PS20 set-up for 2 years. Extremely temperature sensitive. Basically, if it stay in my van it's useless from Nov-April unless I charge it every morning (15 minutes) and then keep it warm thru-out the day. It's a handy tool but I'm not sure on their low voltage Li battery technology.

Milwaukee 12V. I just switched to this platform due to the Bosch 10V Li issue. No cold weather experience yet.

Bottom line, if you do any serious amount of cordless work then Li is the way to go - if for no other reason than the short recharge time. You're mileage will vary on any of the platforms, I haven't heard of any consistent trouble patterns with any manufacturer.

-Norm

 

[Frank-Jan]

...Milwaukee 12V. I just switched to this platform due to the Bosch 10V Li issue. No cold weather experience yet.

Just some trivial info: all those 12v li ion tools are actually 10.8v (yes, also the festool T12+3), Bosch has now renamed their 10.8 line to 12Vmax. (those tools have a peak voltage at startup of 12V, which is what the most of the other manufacturers used for their voltage rating; bosch renamed theirs to avoid confusing, they're still the same tools, with the same batteries)

 

[jatt]

Still running 2 x 14 volt NiCad bosch (green) drills that I bought no more than 3 years ago.  All of the original batteries have died on on them, most died last summer.  Recon it was mostly the heat from being stored in the back of the ute.  Can get ambient temps of between -2  to  +40 deg C where I live.  Bought 2 new batts about 9 months ago, try and keep em out of the heat .

Father bought 2 x Metabo 14 v NiMH units about 3 years ago with 4 batteries.  Spend lots of time in the heat (hot shed, ute, sitting outside etc..) so far so good, spent plenty of days being used like a production line tool.  Heaps more grunt than my Bosch units.  Fact that he has an air cooled charger probably helps with battery life.

He recently purchased a Ryobi 18 v NiCad cordless grinder.  Bogs down really easily as u would expect, short charge life.

I just purchased 2 x Hitachi LiIon drills & a matching grinder.  Heaps more grunt than the bosch, better charge life, even when new.  The grinder gets what I would descibe as reasonable charge life, even when working with a wire buff.  A lot harder to bog down than the Royobi.  Hitachi has an air cooled charger.

As descibed in my "Hi I'm new to the forum" recently, I am using the cooltainer to store my batteries during the day.  Putting with a ice brick wrapped in newspaper inside as well.  Recon this is the way to go, especially if u do site work.

Experience so far with the LiIon has been good, but it is still early days.  NiMH, well the Metabo has proven itself to me.  NiCad, would not go back.  Once the Bosch units die, that's it for me.

 

[UCLA Fan]

Hi Justin,

Quick back ground: I am a self employed all around "Wood Guy" I do all forms of carpentry (rough to finish) and I build furniture and cabinetry. So my experience runs the gamut of tools. I have "construction" tools and fine woodworking tools as well. In terms of use, my tools and the batteries attached of course will sometimes sit on the shelf for months without use. Then they get HARD use up to 12 hours a day for months on end - all depends on the job at hand. I have had nicad, nimh and now lithium battery powered tools and each was a major upgrade along the way.

I bought the  LXT package from Makita 3 years ago (circular saw, impact driver, hammer drill, recip saw) and I can testify to both the longevity of the battery and the tools. I started with 2 batteries that came with the kit then about a year ago I bought 2 more batteries. The amazing thing to me is the original batteries are just as strong and last just as long as the 2 new batteries. At this point I can not tell the difference between the 3 year old battery and the 1 year old battery - AWESOME.

Additional key points:

Lithium batteries work until they don't. They maintain power with very little drop off then they just stop. I have literally had my impact driver go from countersinking a 4 inch lag bolt at what felt like full power then the next bolt goes half way and stops dead. This takes some getting use too. Nicad and nimh batteries are more "analog" for lack of a better term - from the moment you start the tool the battery is decreasing its power delivery on a relatively constant slope. Therefore it is much easier to predict when to charge a nicad/nimh battery. Can't say if this is better or worse behavior. I like it but I keep a battery at full charge ready to go at all times just in case.

Lithium maintains a usable charge "in storage" for many months.

I can't say much about the "cold" issue - I live in southern california and even on our coldest morning it seldom gets below 35 degrees and that is MAYBE 14 days a year. But no cold problems for my lithium batteries.

The tools are not only lighter in absolute terms but MUCH lighter in terms of power per pound. My Makita 18v 3 amp drill has the power of a older 24v nicad/nimh systems but the weight of older 12 volt tools. Some of the Milwaukee V28 tools rival corded tools for absolute torque! Put it this way I had a 12 volt nicad makita drill a few years back it gave about 200 lbs of torque, my 18v LXT gives over 500 lbs of torque and weighs an oz LESS and is less bulky and has a smaller head for access to tight quarters. I love this thing.

Hope this helps

Frank

 

[jaegerhund]

Hello there,  Frank (nice meeting you  ) ------ thanks for the info and nice sell on the li-ion.  I have recently purchased the 10.8v li-ion Makita combo kit (drill and impact driver) but haven't received it yet --- very light weight stuff with each tool being around 2 lbs with battery.  Should fill in nice for certain low demand jobs.  So I suppose I have been sold on li-ion  .

Thanks to everyone for the information.

Justin

P.S. -- man a lot of Franks on this thread ----

 

[UCLA Fan]

Guess we "can be Frank with you"



Frank

p.s. congrats on the Makita purchase great tools

 

[jaegerhund]

Guess we "can be Frank with you"



Frank

p.s. congrats on the Makita purchase great tools

Cool --- maybe I'll give and update or even maybe a review on the Makita tools once I receive them -----.

Justin

 

[Dave Ronyak]

Is there anyone with Panasonic battery powered tools willing to participate in this discussion?  I only have one battery powered drill, a Makita 12V unit with a pair of 2.6AH NiMH batteris tht I bought 5 or 6 years ago.  The batteries are still working, but they are more like 1AH units now.  Panasonic is one of the few primary battery manufacturers, and make the LiON batteries for the Toyota Prius, so they ought to know a thing or two about batteries.  I've been interested in Festool's C12 drill system for some time, mostly because of the accesory specialty chucks, but hesitant due to what appears to be older generation battery technology and the high cost for replacement batteries.

Dave R.

 

[jaegerhund]

Dave, I think Nick will chime in about Panasonic drills  also, but I have a 12 v NiMh Panasonic drill and it really is a great drill with great batteries for sure --- I don't know about their Li-ion technology .

Justin

 

[nickao]

I never had batteries like the Panasonic's. I do not know about the Li Ion, but their 3.5ah and 3.0 ah NiMh batteries are awesome.

I have never had to repair or replace a Panasonic battery. I am on my 3 rd Ridgid battery and both units were purchased at the same time almost 5 years ago.

Panasonic makes batteries for many tool companies and at one time almost all the companies. There are several great cordless drills out there, but I personally can recommend the Panasonic and be comfortable that you will never have trouble with it.

What is really impressive is these 3.5 ah hour batteries are 5 years old with no upgrades and they still blow away many other companies brand new 2008 technology. Probably why Pany sells the exact same drill they did 5 years ago in addition to their newer units. They nailed the NiMh technology and I think are the best I have used using that technology..

Of course in super cold temperature the batteries should be charged before use(If the batteries are like 30 degrees).

 

[Woodenfish]

I had a 12V NiMH 3.5Ah Panasonic drill that I abused the livin $&#@ out of for 7 years before it needed replacement. That tool drilled thousands of holes from 1/16 to 6". It mixed paint, drywall mud, thinset and even saw use running a cylinder hone during several engine rebuilds. Panasonic and Sanyo have been said to make the best batteries and are the OEM suppliers for many tool manufacturers. I heard something about Panasonic purchasing Sanyo recently. Any Panasonic is highly recommended.

That said, when my trusty Panny died I wanted to replace it with the new 14.4V Li Ion. After trying this compact drill out though I felt the handle grip was just a little too small for my hand but it seemed like it could be a great drill for many. I wound up purchasing a Milwaukee 2601-22 18V Li Ion compact drill for myself to try this new technology.

So far, it seems to be as strong as my old 12V Panasonic, it's lightweight, well-balanced and rugged. This Milwaukee Li Ion battery has a lot lower Amp hour rating than the old Panasonic but seems to last as long and it does work better in colder weather plus all the other things Frank said earlier about the Li Ion technology. Some other things I like about the Milwaukee is the battery level meter, it's nice to know how much power is on tap before climbing a ladder and you can't beat the 5 year 2000 charge warranty.

There seems to be a lot of great drill choices on the market for under $200 that put the kibosh on purchasing any of the Festool drills for me.

Dang Nick! Your a smokin fast typist! ;D

 

[nickao]

Internet is my business and I had to learn to type to sell. A lot of people if they do not get a fast answer go somewhere else.

Looks like I have 2 more years on my Pany if your lasted 7 years. Now that's bang for the buck!

Like you said there are so may good products out there it hard to go very wrong. Just compare to what I had in High school and I find it hard to complain about any of the tools. I do not think we even had an electric palm sander until after I graduated and I am not very old. My grandpa would be amazed at what we have now.