Spare parts / CMS discussion

[AlexThePalex]

You keep talking about legally, legally, legally. No one is going through the pain and expense of a court case just for a new pair of brushes.

 

[six-point socket II]

I'm only going to add the following for Germany:

1) implied warranty = what (every) manufacturer is bound to offer by law.
2) guarantee/warranty = what manufacturer offers BEYOND what is required by law, on THEIR terms. (Filling out a card, registering, non-commercial use, (...).

Kind regards,
Oliver

 

[mino]

You keep talking about legally, legally, legally. No one is going through the pain and expense of a court case just for a new pair of brushes.

Yep. And no one is going through the risk of a class-action for a pair of brushes or a couple aluminum parts to make ...

This talk came from allegations that Festool parts availability guarantee is not worth the paper it is on. And that is a legal discussion, unfortunately.

Anyway, all this is mostly FUD.

Festool has a public policy of 10 years availability of spare parts for tools.
It is what it is exactly for the purpose people do not need to worry their expensive tool will become worthless overnight.

Is 10 years still not enough or is it overkill ? Hard to say.

In practice it is more than many professional hand tool makers provide for their tools from the time of announcement, not to mention from EOL date. Heck, for many tools there some spare parts are not available at all.

It is part of the Festool offer. I would say this has the most practical value for hobbyist customers as these may use a tool for decades yet never wear it out.
For a high volume professional, the 3-year all inclusive is the actual offer IMO and the parts availability is an afterthought beyond that.

 

[AlexThePalex]

This talk came from allegations that Festool parts availability guarantee is not worth the paper it is on. And that is a legal discussion, unfortunately.

What allegations?

I doubt it is a legal discussion. A discussion is only a discussion if the words are actually spoken beyond "some guy on the internet said ....."

No one's every going to bother.

By the way, I often order spare parts from Festool and I have no complaints whatsoever about the availability of those parts.

Is 10 years still not enough or is it overkill ? Hard to say.

I think it is not enough. I recently bought some spare parts for my DeWalt/Elu grinder that was 22 years old. I like to keep my older tools running.

Also recently, I had a Remmington trimmer which fell on the ground. One teeth on the outside of the blade was broken off. This rendered the whole trimmer unuseable as the corner would cut into my skin. I asked Remmington if I could buy a new blade. I could not. They were willing to send me an entire new trimmer instead if I could provide the receipt. While I am very meticulous with my receipts I could not find this one anymore. So I had to trash the entire trimmer because of 1 incredibly small and cheap part that was broken.

I find this outrageous. You should be able to repair your possessions. Humans are too wasteful. 

 

[mino]

What allegations?

E.g. this one:
... snip ...
But festool could discontinue a product and discontinue all parts for it at the same time in the US if they want.  This gets to a core part of all the "right to repair" stuff in the US.
... snip ...

Is 10 years still not enough or is it overkill ? Hard to say.

I think it is not enough. I recently bought some spare parts for my DeWalt/Elu grinder that was 22 years old. I like to keep my older tools running.

I would tend to agree, with the caveat that "10 years commitment for all tools from last official offer" and "some parts available even 20 years after tool was purchased" are not mutually exclusive. E.g. the OF1010 is on the market for a decade + by now.

That said, I would like if common semi-consumables like brushes etc. would have a longer availability too. And I think this is what Festool tends to do in practice actually. If some parts are used/sold a lot, so it is economically sensible to restock them, they (seem to) do so.

I only wish this was more prevalent in the industry.

 

[AlexThePalex]

What allegations?

E.g. this one:

... But festool could discontinue a product and discontinue all parts for it at the same time in the US if they want.  This gets to a core part of all the "right to repair" stuff in the US.
... snip ...

Some guy hypothesising in a conversation is hardly an allegation, is it, legally speaking.  [unsure]

 

[mino]

Some guy hypothesising in a conversation is hardly an allegation, is it, legally speaking.  [unsure]

[big grin]

 

[DeformedTree]

Correct,  for some reason some of you got this idea that I was claiming festool wouldn't support the tool, that was never the claim. As has been mentioned, if they can't support it, they will probably do what they can to make right. Festool is limited by what they are able to do on their end, and sometimes all the good will in the world won't change a situation where they can't get a part any more.

But also you are all coming from a different part of the world and laws are different. Consumers do not have the same level of protections on products they buy here as other parts of the world.  Festool may be German, but Festool USA is not. I don't doubt they try to work in the spirit of the German side of thing unless there is a conflicting law preventing it. Everything else would be goodwill by Festool USA to go above and beyond US law. But most importantly, never assume the laws work the same in the US and EU.

To Alex's point, is anyone going to go to legal battle over as he says lack of getting brushes ? No.

You probably will find people who will yell and scream about "10 years" if they couldn't get something, will it make Festool look bad? Probably not as people complain about everything all companies due (did Kapex smoking destroy Festool?). The bulk of people understand when a part can't be had anymore, and as long as the company is responsive or makes some effort to help, they accept and move on.  Making claims about support on stuff and then not following through is just expected here from businesses. No one trust what a company says when it comes to such things.  Cost more to take to court than it's worth and even if you win, you would get a tiny bit of money for your efforts. 

It's not even like Festool USA pushes the 10 year parts deal,  one tiny blip on pg 16 of the catalog

"10-Year spare parts guarantee".   

 

[Coen]

You keep talking about legally, legally, legally. No one is going through the pain and expense of a court case just for a new pair of brushes.

That is the American perspective he, were legal spending is a significant proportion of GDP  [tongue]

 

[DeformedTree]

You keep talking about legally, legally, legally. No one is going through the pain and expense of a court case just for a new pair of brushes.

That is the American perspective he, were legal spending is a significant proportion of GDP  [tongue]

There will always be someone with money to burn on the hill they decided to die on. Many of the dumb suits are 15 minutes of fame situations.  But sometimes someone does it to prove a point...of some type.

USA #1

Maybe if other countries try real hard they can pass the US.

 

[Coen]

You keep talking about legally, legally, legally. No one is going through the pain and expense of a court case just for a new pair of brushes.

That is the American perspective he, were legal spending is a significant proportion of GDP  [tongue]

There will always be someone with money to burn on the hill they decided to die on. Many of the dumb suits are 15 minutes of fame situations.  But sometimes someone does it to prove a point...of some type.

USA #1

Maybe if other countries try real hard they can pass the US.

Our government is doing it's best to catch up. That is... in writing dumbass legislation that then results in massive litigation.  [wink]

 

[Coen]

when CMS was discontinued, the parts disappeared in a massive way

CMS still falls under the 10 year parts availability warranty of Festool. You can still order all the individual parts and build one yourself.
That is exactly what I did to get my CMS-PS module.

So I was talking about what folks would by from stores, not parts.  Still,  ability to buy spares doesn't matter much at all. It's no longer a concurrent product, no further development, no longer on store shelves, etc.  So going to those means doesn't much matter. 

I don't understand this anxiety. Get what you want when given opportunity, put it to use and be happy. Many of my tools have been discontinued, and all the rest will certainly be discontinued at some point. Should I not buy tools because of this?

It's about not buying into a dead platform. Those that already have a bunch of CMS parts; the parts availability is a way to expand. For those that have nothing in CMS yet; I recommend they look elsewhere.

 

[Svar]

when CMS was discontinued, the parts disappeared in a massive way

CMS still falls under the 10 year parts availability warranty of Festool. You can still order all the individual parts and build one yourself.
That is exactly what I did to get my CMS-PS module.

So I was talking about what folks would by from stores, not parts.  Still,  ability to buy spares doesn't matter much at all. It's no longer a concurrent product, no further development, no longer on store shelves, etc.  So going to those means doesn't much matter. 

I don't understand this anxiety. Get what you want when given opportunity, put it to use and be happy. Many of my tools have been discontinued, and all the rest will certainly be discontinued at some point. Should I not buy tools because of this?

It's about not buying into a dead platform. Those that already have a bunch of CMS parts; the parts availability is a way to expand. For those that have nothing in CMS yet; I recommend they look elsewhere.

CMS is still available in the US. Hence my comment to the OP.

 

[Paul_HKI]

Is 10 years still not enough or is it overkill ? Hard to say.

I think it is not enough. I recently bought some spare parts for my DeWalt/Elu grinder that was 22 years old. I like to keep my older tools running.

Me too.

My 23 year old Festo RS400 benefited from Festool's parts availability last week also when I finally got around to cleaning off a couple of decades worth of filth, glue and plaster and replacing a few parts at the same time.  I think it's great that the manufacturer maintain an interest in making parts available rather than having folk dealing with poor quality aftermarket junk. 

View attachment 1

 

[Coen]

when CMS was discontinued, the parts disappeared in a massive way

CMS still falls under the 10 year parts availability warranty of Festool. You can still order all the individual parts and build one yourself.
That is exactly what I did to get my CMS-PS module.

So I was talking about what folks would by from stores, not parts.  Still,  ability to buy spares doesn't matter much at all. It's no longer a concurrent product, no further development, no longer on store shelves, etc.  So going to those means doesn't much matter. 

I don't understand this anxiety. Get what you want when given opportunity, put it to use and be happy. Many of my tools have been discontinued, and all the rest will certainly be discontinued at some point. Should I not buy tools because of this?

It's about not buying into a dead platform. Those that already have a bunch of CMS parts; the parts availability is a way to expand. For those that have nothing in CMS yet; I recommend they look elsewhere.

CMS is still available in the US. Hence my comment to the OP.

CMS was never fully available in the US with some options missing. Now that in Festool's main market CMS is no longer offered... I wonder how long it will last. Knowing Festool... announcements of to be discontinued products tend to come after the fact...  [huh]

 

[jeh]

This talk came from allegations that Festool parts availability guarantee is not worth the paper it is on. And that is a legal discussion, unfortunately.

What allegations?

I doubt it is a legal discussion. A discussion is only a discussion if the words are actually spoken beyond "some guy on the internet said ....."

No one's every going to bother.

By the way, I often order spare parts from Festool and I have no complaints whatsoever about the availability of those parts.

Is 10 years still not enough or is it overkill ? Hard to say.

I think it is not enough. I recently bought some spare parts for my DeWalt/Elu grinder that was 22 years old. I like to keep my older tools running.

Also recently, I had a Remmington trimmer which fell on the ground. One teeth on the outside of the blade was broken off. This rendered the whole trimmer unuseable as the corner would cut into my skin. I asked Remmington if I could buy a new blade. I could not. They were willing to send me an entire new trimmer instead if I could provide the receipt. While I am very meticulous with my receipts I could not find this one anymore. So I had to trash the entire trimmer because of 1 incredibly small and cheap part that was broken.

I find this outrageous. You should be able to repair your possessions. Humans are too wasteful.

Asking for the receipt is somewhat outrageous as he should just be able to send his broken part in for a replacement. I have had warranty and non-warranty issues on parts where the manufacturer does not sell parts, but offers a replacement component for free or ridiculously cheap.

 

[DeformedTree]

If they didn't ask for something like a receipt, then people could go to the dump, curb, etc pull something out of the trash and then try to get a replacement.

Far as getting parts, and service. Yes, I think everyone wishes all companies made it easy for anyone to get a hold of them and buy a part. Even if it's a bit pricey for what it is, if it means being able too keep something going, great.

People hate trashing things, but at the same time most stuff made today is designed to be trashed, even if you could get the part, is it worth it? Making tools easy to repair and get parts for makes sense when they are well designed tools designed to be around for a long time.

Some companies do a good job, others a famously horrible. The nice thing about stuff festool makes is there is little reason for change, things can go on for a long time as is. Which is why when the make a dumb change, or leave out a feature that should have been there, it's extra frustrating as it probably won't get resolved for 10-15 years.

It's what makes well built, well designed corded tools nice. There is no reason they won't work just fine for decades and be serviceable along the way. For items you use rarely, maybe even pull out once every few years, they can't be beat.

 

[AlexThePalex]

Asking for the receipt is somewhat outrageous as he should just be able to send his broken part in for a replacement. I have had warranty and non-warranty issues on parts where the manufacturer does not sell parts, but offers a replacement component for free or ridiculously cheap.

No, a receipt is a perfectly acceptable way to ask for proof of ownership. How else?

Sending it in would be a bad idea. I bought the trimmer for €17 in a sale. Sending it both ways would be more expensive.

The broken blade though is a very small part, the size of a big coin. Could be send to me for perhaps €3 cost.

even if you could get the part, is it worth it? Making tools easy to repair and get parts for makes sense when they are well designed tools designed to be around for a long time.

Darn right it is worth it, the trimmer was only 6 months old. I had my previous corded Philips trimmer for almost 15 years. The Philips is still good, but I wanted the new one because it was cordless and very cheap. Guess what? I can still order a new blade for my old Philips.

Suffice it to say, I bought a cordless Philips now. I am NEVER, EVER buying anything from Remington again, and I will diss the brand at every occasion I get. Remington just scored a life sized -1 with me.

 

[Coen]

Also recently, I had a Remmington trimmer which fell on the ground. One teeth on the outside of the blade was broken off. This rendered the whole trimmer unuseable as the corner would cut into my skin. I asked Remmington if I could buy a new blade. I could not. They were willing to send me an entire new trimmer instead if I could provide the receipt. While I am very meticulous with my receipts I could not find this one anymore. So I had to trash the entire trimmer because of 1 incredibly small and cheap part that was broken.

I find this outrageous. You should be able to repair your possessions. Humans are too wasteful.

Oooh. Companies that invent rules like that get an invented receipt from me, no problemo.

 

[AlexThePalex]

Oooh. Companies that invent rules like that get an invented receipt from me, no problemo.

Hehe, I didn't think of that. Could have easily made something up in photoshop, they only wanted me to send a picture over the mail.

[smile]

Still happier with the Philips now, which is better quality overal.