Speculation, rants and forum etiquette.

[Brice Burrell]

  In resent threads there has been Kapex speculation, Domino problems and LR32 trouble. This brings me to forum etiquette. When does a member go too far? I would like to hear your opinions on both dissatisfied customers comments/rants and rumors/speculation.

  Now lets get more specific. Quality control or product design as it relates to Festool products only. I know I hold Festool to a higher standard than other tool companies. Is this fair? The Domino, do you feel your's came from the factory properly adjusted? Do you think Festool's quality control was substandard in order to get them on the shelves faster? Are you concerned about future Festool products suffering from this type of problem? Or if you have any other concerns, lets hear them.

  So please let me know what you think. And please keep all comments constructive and Festool relevant.

 

[rmoursund]

I have had the Domino since April, 07 and have had to make several adjustments in order to correct out of the box problems. 
First, the pins were unequal distances from the centerline of the bit.  This problem was addressed in the instructions and a satisfactory correction was achieved.  However, the instructions did not address the fact that an Allen headed set screw needed to be loosened prior to turning the eccentric pin with a screwdriver.  Fortunately, I called Festool and discovered this prior to damaging the eccentric pin.
The second problem concerned the fence not going to a 90-degree position when locked in place.  This resulted in a gap when the two pieces of stock were butted together with the dominos in place.  This was not addressed in the instructions, but a satisfactory correction was achieved when I confirmed the problem with Festool and corrected the problem following their instructions. 
The third problem concerned the fence?s vertical scale.  When setting the stop block to 20mm, the point was slightly off the 10mm position on the vertical scale.  This was easily corrected.

The other Festools that I own are: CT33E dust collector; Rotex 150 Sander; 150/3 Sander; LS 130 Sander; Deltex Sander; Trion Jigsaw; and he TS 75 Circular Saw with the 1080 MFT.  I have had no problems with these tools and I rate all of them highly.

As far as "Out of the Box" problems with the Domino - Quality Control or Design - I don't know, maybe a little of both.  The Domino system is a very precise operation.  The tolerances are very tight, and any adjustments that are not right on result in error and possible loss of stock.  I do know that for the money I paid for the Domino System and the expectations that I have in Festool, I needed a lot of get acquainted time and I was disappointed in the "Out of the Box" performance of my Domino, although it is working properly know. 

Bottom line for me is that when I order a Festool, I expect it to arrive in perfect operating condition and to perform the job that it was designed for.

 

[brandon.nickel]

I too bought the Domino when it first came out.  Due to a new baby, I haven't spent a lot of time using it up until now.  My initial experiments produced problematic results which I chalked up to use error.  After watching the drama unfold here over the last several months, I came to realize that even Festool is not infallible.  Like rmoursund I also own quite a few Festools.  MFT1080, TS55, Trion, Rotex 150, LR32, OF1400, CT33.  I'm thrilled with all of them.  The only item that's required adjustment other than the Domino is the Trion.  I need to adjust the carbide blade guides.  These cannot be factory adjusted due to the difference in the blades.  This I can accept.

I also own a Jet tablesaw which was a nightmare to set-up.  It's cheap and I only use it for ripping stock to width.  I wish it had come properly setup to use, but it wasn't.  It's not a premium tool, so I accept its poor "out-of-the box" performance.  Same with my Grizzly drum sander.  It doesn't produce an even stock thickness and has not performed satisfactorily.  It supports my usual theory that you should stick to top-of-the-line tools if you want good performance.  I wouldn't buy either of these tools again.

Finally, I also own a Powermatic 54A jointer.  This is also a "premium" level tool.  I expected (and got) a tool which was setup level and square out of the box.  I consistently remove material 0.025" per pass (usually to clean up damage from the Jet).  I have been thrilled with its performance and would readily buy more from Powermatic.

So, in summary, I adjust my expectations to the category of tools I'm buying.  With a tool as precise as the Domino, I expect the factory settings to be accurate.  I suppose my complaints can be viewed as a "rant", but if I can't discuss my views openly with other Festool owners, what's the point of this forum?  It is conceivable that someone else has encountered the same problem and had a solution to the problem I encountered.  It also served to generate a very positive and rapid customer service response from my dealer and Festool USA. 

-Brandon

 

[ROb McGilp]

Hi all,
I have purchased several Festool products and love them for their quality. If a Festool (when working properly) says it will do something, it will do it, not just somewhere close, but spot on. As for the company who makes them, my opinion is different. I always worry about a company that wins a "Creative Marketing" award.
I have
2 OF2000 Routers bought at the same time. The first had no spanner. The second ate a Leigh router bit on first use. The nut/collet assembly (taken fresh from its pack) shifted, resulting in a jam. I took the router back as a warranty claim and 3 weeks later it was returned with a note saying don't do that again and by the way here's the bill for $35.00. I rang Tooltechnic and was told there, there we guarantee it'll be all right, after all its Festool.

1 TS75. Worked beautifully straight out the box.

1 RO150FEQ. The power cord would not lock into place. Turns out it was not the one for the RO150.

1 Trion Jigsaw. Worked beautifully straight from the box.

1 C12 Drill. Worked perfectly out of the box.

1 Domino. Looked OK out the box, but the lock for the cut height gave way after one use. I adjusted it and got on with the job, but this makes me wonder about the strict QC that should be in place. I sincerely doubt that Festool actually do these supposed cuts with the Domino for two reasons. First, how can the mortises be so far out so soon after purchase and secondly, where the heck do they keep them all.
The other issue I have is with the locks for the height and plate angle adjust loosening over time. I also have to say that I did not receive an Allen key with the unit, nor instructions on what to do with it if it was there.

In summary, the QC of Festool instruments as at best inconsistent and at worst a nightmare. The fact is that their prices are fixed, their claim being that Resellers compete on service. Their prices are high, but the products are just so far ahead of whats second, they can do this. Their attitude is "we are doing you a favour letting you buy this, so don't start. Again until someone comes close in the design and engineering, what do you do? Any tool should have adequate QC, but when a company starts to allow failures within the market place and allow Support to wear it, then I'm worried.

Confirmed Festool fool

Rob

 

[Tinker]

As i understand, this forum, as with many others, is all about tools.  It is also all about WW'er's associations with those tools as well as with those who are selling those tools. Occasionally, it has been requested by members as well as forum leaders to give feedback on use of tools and the levels of satisfaction from use of those tools.  I see nothing wrong in honest and straightforward replies.  i do not go for such replies when the aim is only to knock the seller or manufacturer.  after all, if all, or most, of the tools produced by a certain manufacturer were duds, that company would not long stay in business. 

When a product is sent down a "belt" in large quantities and inspected in large quantities, i am sure that those who are doing the inspections are under a certain amount of pressure to get a certain number of items thoroughly checked over.  i am not surprised that there are a few that happen to slip thru with less than total scrutiny. 

To me, it is the attitude of supplier/manufacturer when confronted with a dud that is of the greater importance. If there are dissatisfaction or disputes, I see nothing wrong in pointng them out here.  Just so long as we "keep the party clean."
Tinker

 

[Groggy]

When does a member go too far? I would like to hear your opinions on both dissatisfied customers comments/rants and rumors/speculation.

I'd say there are two ways to go too far. The first is to ignore any failings of the tools and to only post positive comments. The second would be to post on emotion rather than observation or experience.

Now lets get more specific. Quality control or product design as it relates to Festool products only. I know I hold Festool to a higher standard than other tool companies. Is this fair? The Domino, do you feel your's came from the factory properly adjusted? Do you think Festool's quality control was substandard in order to get them on the shelves faster? Are you concerned about future Festool products suffering from this type of problem? Or if you have any other concerns, lets hear them.

I am less concerned with a problem in a new tool than I am in what the company does about it. Do they pretend it doesn't exist or do they get proactive and look after their vendors and customers.

 

[Dan Clark]

I think there are two issues here - Trolling and Festool.  The first is related to the board; the second is related to the company and tools.

Regarding posting negative stuff...

Although it has died down dramatically in the last several months, trolling by competitors was a problem at one time.  Like many other forums, competitors and trouble-makers saw a great opportunity to disrupt this forum and its predecessor on Yahoo.  That has made many of us extremely gun shy and overly protective of Festool. 

When I read a post that reads like a marketing brochure for a competitive product or seems like it has a hidden agenda, I pull the "troll-trigger" instantly.  Sometimes that's not warranted, but after you have been burned so many times...  Well, it's understandable. 

I think its very reasonable to post negatives that pop up.  Christian and the rest of the Festool folks need to be aware of customer perceptions, issues, and needs. 

OTOH, we need to keep the messages rational and factual.  Broad generalizations and blatent emotionalism are not appropriate.    IMO, It's OK to say that "the Domino has issue A, B, and C; here's why..."  It's NOT OK to start posts with "The Domino is a piece of junk!"

Regarding what is happening with Festool and it's QC...

I'm love my Festools.  They are great!  Perfect?  No.  But still great!

I see more posts about the Festool QC.  I suspect that this is caused by the higher volume and company growth. 

When I started looking at Festool (about 18 months ago), my impression was that they were great tools, but aimed at a small number of serious pros and really fanatic amateurs.  The posts I read on other forums generally fell into two categories.  Some were, "Ooooh, very nice Rolls Royce-level tools for the select few."  Most were, "Only owned by elitist snobs! Not worth the money!  Overrated! Blah, blah, blah..." 

Now, the general tone of Festool posts is very positive.  Some people can't afford them or are happy with what they currently have, but virtually all of the nay-saying has died down.  In the last 18 months Festool has come a long way in the minds of American tool-buyers.  And, they've announced and delivered some great new tools and accessories.  That's the upside.

The downside of this is growth.  They have grown a lot.  New dealers popping up.  Increased marketing.  Higher volume of shipments.  More new tools.  More accessories and consumables.    I suspect the logistics alone are 200-300% more complex than two years ago.

I'm suspect that Festool's biggest challenge going forward is maintaining the quality and customer service that we know and love.  Just because the Domino is a new tool, with new technology, in a new category (portable loose tenons), doesn't make a hoot of difference to us customers.  Our expectations for the tools are the same or have increased - premium quality and service.

I sincerely hope that they continue to meet my expectations.  After all, if Festool fails, what do I buy then?  :'(

Dan.

 

[woodshopdemos]

  I wish I could find a review by one of those people who were lucky enough to tour the Festool factory and see Dominos assembled first hand. What I saw was assembly a far cry from the mass produced assembly lines that we sometimes see. It looked rather like a custom assembly multiple station. I also recall that Domino inspection was two part. There was an inspection station on the line that electronically checked every unit before it could proceed. There was also a random inspection where a unit was unpacked and run on real wood.
  At a time when he company was behind in production, I was impressed by what I read. So when I got my hands on units for the shop here, I was expecting to unpack and go to town. I was delighted that I could do just that. Tight mortises right out of the box.
  Now don't get me wrong. I have read about the problems some Dominousers have had. I always appreciate of the ingeniousness of real users to get into the machine and fix things. It does allow that person to get the Domino working ASAP. BUT, there is one downside that I can see in this: the Festool office doesn't get a unit back so they can fix and notate. 
  I do not suggest sending the unit back no matter what. I sure wouldn't let go of my Domino if I could in fact fix it...but call the 800-number and get the service manager and tell himwhat you did...even if it was months ago. Festool needs our input.

 

[Bob Marino]

I have been an ISA/dealer for a tad over 5 years and I appreciate and am thankful for the excellent responses here and think I agree with everybody! Festool has been and I know will continue to be a company that values quality over the next quarters' return. I have had the priviledge of meeting/knowing many of the people at Festool USA and can tell you that from top down are concerned with having a quality product with service to back it up. They read this forum.
Having said that, tools and service are not perfect and perhaps some of the alignment issues are a result of the many miles and hands these tools go to to get the the end customer. I have recieved rails with the UPS driver's foot prints all over the box and pallets of tools from the freight company that were not secured in the truck. Frustrating!
I think the value of this forum is for the open exchange of ideas and issues and will serve no one if it is merely  a cheering section for the tools. I don't think it's beneficial in the long run if people are afraid of posting a problem they encountered with the tool. Yes, people writing of such an issue may want to take a deep breath and consider how they word their response, so as not to be merely inflamatory, but constructive and yes, there are some items that would be better served with an email or PM, but better to error on the side of openess than over protectiveness.

Bob

 

[Ned]

I would like to hear your opinions on both dissatisfied customers comments/rants...

If I buy something--anything--and it is not satisfactory, my first recourse is to go to the seller for satisfaction, then to the manufacturer.  I believe that if I were immediately to post my unhappiness with the product in a public forum, without giving the seller/manufacturer a chance to make it right, it would be both unfair and rude to the seller and manufacturer.

If Festool sends out 25 of tool X and next week has customer service calls about [some number] of them, they'll get the message, just as effectively as if we rant here.

One positive thing we have learned from the complaints on FOG:  No matter how big the flame of a complaint, I have never seen a complaint that Festool USA or their dealers/agents, when contacted, did not give satisfaction.  Not once.  Since Festool USA does make it right, why not go to them first?

All the pre-contact rants do is make it more difficult for the guys who are going to help us to do so cheerfully.

If and only if a seller or manufacturer has repeatedly not satisfied me is a flame justified.  And at that point a public flame is justified.

IMO, general concerns about quality should be directed privately to Christian O.  Again, enough concern will translate to action.  Concern expressed privately doesn't have to overcome the quite natural defensiveness that a public attack tends to create.

...and rumors/speculation.

Anything I can glean from public information available anywhere on the planet is fair game for posting.

Anything a Festool employee says to me is in confidence.  I have on occasion asked if I could spread the word on something I've been told.  Then and only then do I post it.  This would be good policy for all of us.  We want Festool employees to be comfortable talking to us.

Ned

 

[Brice Burrell]

I would like to add a few more things to comment on. Kapex discussion with Festool USA, in that thread there is some speculation about quality control at Festool. First question, does that thread or that type of thread turn you off? Second question, will that thread affect your your decision to buy the Domino or Kapex? And does that thread influence your opinion of Festool?

 

[Tinker]

I would like to add a few more things to comment on. Kapex discussion with Festool USA, in that thread there is some speculation about quality control at Festool. First question, does that thread or that type of thread turn you off?

No. 

Second question, will that thread affect your your decision to buy the Domino or Kapex?

No

And does that thread influence your opinion of Festool?

No

In honesty, there is probably some influence down deep. I look at the value of the tool for my situation.  If the tool fits, and I am sure it will be of value to me, as a hobbyist (he who dies with most tools wins), i appreciate the problems being shown to me in advance.  There is another post where a WW'er just bought the Domino.  He had an adjustment problem and came across as feeling possibly ripped off and making like it was a dumb thing on Festool's part that he should have such a problem.  Rick Christoferson jumped in and told the man how to solve the problem step by step.  I'm not saying the original poster should have figured it out himself, but he could have been a little less confrontational.  I have been buying machinery for my businesses for nearly 60 years and have run into many problems along the way.  So has anybody else who has bought tools and machinery.  I have yet to run into a problem with new toys that was absolutely unsolvable.  Unsolvable by me, maybe, but i have always managed to find somebody smarter than i who could solve it.  That has to be the case with Festools as well.
Tinker

 

[Jesse Cloud]

Interesting thread!  Here's my two cents worth....

I think the forum is most worthwhile if the discussion is completely open and frank.  If someone has a problem with a Festool, I benefit from knowing about that problem and what Festool or the owner did to solve it.

I wonder sometimes if Festool might be offended by some of the dialog and criticism, but then I think of many of the German people I know.  Not to foster a stereotype, but they are generally a demanding culture and don't hesitate to insist that things should be right.  I doubt that Festool is any stranger to outraged (rightly or wrongly) customers. 

Every time I see a post reporting a problem and verifying that Festool made it right, I feel better about my investment.

If there is a quality problem with recent Dominoes, I'm sure Festool has got the message loud and clear.

There's an old saying, "A satisfied customer tells three others about his purchase, a dissatisfied customer tells ten."

Having said all that, lets take the speculation about Kapex quality for what it is, speculation.  Fun reading, but not a basis for a buying decision.

One of the things we like about Festools is how just about anything can be adjusted and tuned.  The down side of that is that most things that can be adjusted will eventually need adjusting.  No need to take it personally...

BTW,  I have had two dings from shipping on Festool purchases (a punctured systainer and a bent MFT rail).  Festool promptly fixed the problems to my satisfaction.  Otherwise, every tool has been perfect out of the box.

 

[clintholeman]

The measure of a company - or people for that matter, isn't how they do when things are all peachy, it is how they respond when there is a problem.  FesTool has and continues to be outstanding in fixing anything wrong with their tools.  The ISAs back jump on issues - with the backing of FesTool.

It would be nice if everything was all right all of the time - and getting a piece of equipment that isn't quite right can be disappointing, but the issue is what the company does then.  I haven't heard anyone who has had a problem, actually notified FesTool, and hasn't gotten a pretty fast and good response.  As long as they keep doing that, as well as making the finest system around, I think I'll stick with them!

This list is a forum where we can, in a gentlemanly way, discuss issues of using this terrific system - and when, thinga aren't right, then it is appropriate to bring them up.  The important thing is to approach it is a gentlemanly, problem solving way - simply whining about a toy that wasn't quite right doesn't solve any problems...

 

[Dave Rudy]

I would like to hear your opinions on both dissatisfied customers comments/rants...

Bear with my $.02.

ASSUME SOAPBOX

If I buy something--anything--and it is not satisfactory, my first recourse is to go to the seller for satisfaction, then to the manufacturer.  I believe that if I were immediately to post my unhappiness with the product in a public forum, without giving the seller/manufacturer a chance to make it right, it would be both unfair and rude to the seller and manufacturer.

If Festool sends out 25 of tool X and next week has customer service calls about [some number] of them, they'll get the message, just as effectively as if we rant here.

One positive thing we have learned from the complaints on FOG:  No matter how big the flame of a complaint, I have never seen a complaint that Festool USA or their dealers/agents, when contacted, did not give satisfaction.  Not once.  Since Festool USA does make it right, why not go to them first?

All the pre-contact rants do is make it more difficult for the guys who are going to help us to do so cheerfully.

If and only if a seller or manufacturer has repeatedly not satisfied me is a flame justified.  And at that point a public flame is justified.

IMO, general concerns about quality should be directed privately to Christian O.  Again, enough concern will translate to action.  Concern expressed privately doesn't have to overcome the quite natural defensiveness that a public attack tends to create.

...and rumors/speculation.

Anything I can glean from public information available anywhere on the planet is fair game for posting.

Anything a Festool employee says to me is in confidence.  I have on occasion asked if I could spread the word on something I've been told.  Then and only then do I post it.  This would be good policy for all of us.  We want Festool employees to be comfortable talking to us.

Ned

I gotta agree (strongly) with Ned.  Unlike some of you, I don't particularly care if a precision instrument (like the Domino) is perfectly adjusted out of the box or not.  Part of getting to know the tool is to put it through its adjustment process for me, anyway.  That gave me an excuse to tune the Domino (and I did have to, a little bit).

I once had an Alfa Romeo Spidr convertible.  At the time, it was an exotic, "high-end" sports car (within reasonable limits).  After about 40k miles, the driver's side front shock went and the car had a noticeable list.  The result? out of warranty (36k miles).  I was upset and argued with Alfa about it -- I had never had a shock go at such low mileage, etc., and I EXPECTED MORE since I paid "so much" for the car.  Shrugged shoulders from the dealer -- you didn't buy a Rolls!!!I#@*(*$)#@$)*)*)*)*)*)*$(that was me).
The point is that: we get superior exceptional quality tools from Festool.  We pay more for them, but not outrageously more.  We also get a company that lives up to its promises time after time on the back end.  We even get a CEO who makes himself personally accesible to solve any and all customer satisfaction issues -- try that with Mr. Ford or even Mr. Mercedes.

I think that this forum works exceptionally well when we share information and technique -- and that includes solving tool problems.  I think it works really badly when people feel the right and take the opportunity to vent their spleens, sometimes at what appear to me to be relatively picky things.

We should all be rooting for the success of Festool.  In part, that depends on Festool's reputation.  And Festool's reputation hangs to a more significant extent than we realize on this forum.  Instead of beefing about small, easily correctable problems, solve them -- there are many ways.  We will also ensure that Festool keeps its well-deserved reputation for quality and customer satisfaction.

An example is putting two guide rails together.  I got into a real beef with a shill for a guide-rail competitor (you can probably guess who) who insisted that putting the guide rails together didn't work, that people were complaining right and left, etc, etc.  His "facts" -- this forum (its predecessor actually).  Truth is several people have posted easy and quick "fixes" for the multiple rail problem (I've never had a problem cutting a straight line with two joined rails).  The point is that Festool got dinged for something which is easily corrected and that's where our energy should be going.

Let's solve problems together, not complain.  The continued financial health of Festool will ensure even more and better tools in the years to come.

OFF SOAPBOX.

 

[Amateur]

Well said Dave.

 

[ROb McGilp]

Dave, I agree with you also. Might borrow that sop box of yours sometime, it seems to impart logic and common sense or maybe that's just you!
I have to agree that despite some early problems with ToolTechnic (the company), almost all my problems with Festool (the device) have been very petty.
There's one more thing I'd like to consider and that is that I believe that some issues arise between shipping from the factory and arrival in your workshop. The systainer is hardly a secure box and some unscrupulous or ill trained merchants may be tempted to rat from one device to service another, then either forget to replace the bit they took or replace it with the wrong one. (e.g. power cords and spanners.) Its also possible that some oaf decides to play with a Domino and see just how tight you can get the lock for the fence. These issues are not in any way related to Festool or ToolTechnic.

Regards,

Rob

 

[Bob Marino]

Well said, Dave and Ned. No soapbox, just intelligent, fair comments.  Thanks all.

Bob

 

[The Dude]

It has alway been my contention that there are two components of running a business; no matter how big or small.  The two components are Function and Goal.

The Function of a business should be to: Acquire and maintain client?le.
The Goal of a business should be to: Turn a profit.

All to often, business owners get these two components confused; they feel that the function is to make money...not the case!  If a company cannot "acquire and maintain" their customer base, they will not turn a profit.  A wise owner that I worked for when I was very young explained to me that: "It is not the person that does it the best that wins!  It is the person that can do it the best the longest that wins!"

Testimony to FestoolUSA et. al. is that they do things right.  If they don't know of a problem, how can you expect them to take action in resolving issues.  I totally agree that the opportunity needs to be given to dealer/Festool first to resolve any issues.  Once that action has been taken, post the positive.  The easiest thing to do is to "..rant.." about the negative in a public forum. The difficult and inconvienient, yet RIGHT thing to do is to take action.  We are all here because we are Festool believers.  One just doesn't wind up on FOG by chance, especially if they don't know about Festool products.  My point is to allow Festool to do what they do better than anyone else, "COMPLAINT RESOLUTION!"  Then air out how the made things right.  If the brand is to be proliferated beyond FOG, we all must do our part.  The more the word gets out about Festool, the stronger the brand will become.  It is really that simple.

To throw more adage out here: "If you are not part of the solution, you must be part of the problem."  FOG is a tremendous source of knowledge towards Festool product, application, technical issues, and colloquial speaking, Tools and woodworking, that cater to the intermediate to advanced woodworker, and of course, the pros that lend so much to this forum.  Do your part to find the solutions, as we do here every day sharing ideas.

Timmy C

 

[Brent b]

Wow, there's a lot in this discussion.  I have a different take that seems to be in the minority; maybe counter to netiquette in general, and this particular forum specifically.  It seems to me that free expression is one of the greater aspects of modern free society.  Denying free expresion, whatever form it may take, is tantamount to repression.  If people are having problems, are irked, angry, grumpy, stymied, or otherwise thwarted then I say let them get it out in a safe place.  This seems like a safe enough place.  Although I really enjoy and value Festools products I don't believe it's my job to be considering they're PR, or corporate image, especially in regards to profit.  We all can judge when someone is making comments from an emotional basis, and judge it as such.  We all have our own experiences with these tools and someones critical comments cannot take that away.  Anyone considering buying into festool's system who may be turned off by such criticism, whilst ignoring the heaping generous praise  would be confusing cause and effect.  The cause of people's criticism is not that the tools are not quality, and the company is not standup, it's that the tools are complex and cutting edge, and needing of understanding that goes beyond most tools.  I also believe that this forum acts as some type of feedback system for Festool and they should get the full range of impressions and opinions available.  Information and knowledge are tantamount to power these days.

On a hijacking note,
Timmy, I'm curious you're analysis of running a business is specific to yourself or a general statement for all businesses.  My goal is to try and create beauty in the world (very far away goal).  Profit allows me to sustain and clients give me the opportunity. 

Brent