Speculations over Festool's VAC SYS

[Paul Perry]

In a recent post, one of the members here, Christian A., mentioned a new vacuum clamping tool from Festool, the VAC SYS. A quick google suggests that it will be presented in Nurnberg at the Holz-Handwerk fair in just a couple of weeks.

Apart from me, is anyone else here curious about this? What do you think Festool might have in mind?

Both wild and educated guesses are welcome. (Or has anyone already had a sneaky peek?)

 

[jonny round boy]

I saw one at the Interbuild show here in the UK in November. I posted about it HERE, though at the time I was convinced it was a compressor rather than a vacuum pump. I know nothing of vacuum pumps, so this may be a stupid question, but is it possible to have one unit that functions as both (obviously not at the same time!)?

 

[nickao]

Adding a venturi to a compressor will make it act  as a vacuum press(pump). So there are many ways possible they can incorporate switching from air compressors to vacuum pump.

There are different  venturi systems you can add to your current compressor to make it a vacuum pump.

Venturi

 

[Dave Ronyak]

A compressor sucks in air, compresses it, and then the compressed air exits the machine.  So the inlet to any compressor is a potential source of vacuum.
And, as others have noted, a flowing air stream (from a compressor) can be fed through a venturi which creates a region of lower air pressure within itself, so if another conduit is introduced to that low pressure area, a vacuum will be created in that conduit.  This priniciple is used to introduce the fuel in the airstream in a carburetor, and the paint in airbrush paint sprayer systems among many other applications.

Dave R.

 

[Christian A.]

Hi folks,

well, to be honest, I'm not that curious about the VAC SYS any more because last Saturday I checked it out in person during a demo at a woodworking store in Austria.
More information about the Festool VAC SYS can be found on page 11 in this German catalogue (caution 41.2 MB!!!).
If the link doesn't work click on "Jubil?ums-Katalog 2008"  here.

Regards,

Christian

 

[Michael Kellough]

I saw one at the Interbuild show here in the UK in November. I posted about it HERE, though at the time I was convinced it was a compressor rather than a vacuum pump. I know nothing of vacuum pumps, so this may be a stupid question, but is it possible to have one unit that functions as both (obviously not at the same time!)?

This is what I want to know more about, in addition to the power source.

 

[Ned]

I saw one at the Interbuild show here in the UK in November. I posted about it HERE, though at the time I was convinced it was a compressor rather than a vacuum pump. I know nothing of vacuum pumps, so this may be a stupid question, but is it possible to have one unit that functions as both (obviously not at the same time!)?

This is what I want to know more about, in addition to the power source.

It's in the front of the Festool section in the catalog Christian pointed to.  Right under the Kapex.

Ned

 

[mysterium]

I'm not sure exactly what Festool is up too.... however I have been doing vacuum clamping/bagging for years.  I made my 1st vacuum bag from a water bed & a broom stick   

I have used both venturi & vacuum pumps.  When you do vacuum bagging you can use a check value in line along with a vacuum  limit switch (like a pressure switch on a compressor but in reverse) to cycle the pump on when the vacuum drops below your set limit, thus it's only running to build up the vacuum & then shuts off.  However when you do vacuum clamping the pump runs continuously as long as clamping pressure is needed...  Imagine your compressor running continuously plus the "hiss" of a blow gun running wide open....   That's a venturi vacuum system.  The noise will DRIVE YOU CRAZY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!  You can buy a cheap venturi from Harbor Freight for about $20 that with a modest little compressor will allow you to do vacuum clamping (I will explain vacuum clamping shortly).  Although the venturi systems worked well the noise was unacceptable.  I build a vacuum pump from parts & added a limit switch for bagging.  I have had several pump set ups from diaphragm, to piston, to rotary vain but all even work well for pulling a vacuum for clamping and are MUCH more quite the a venturi/compressor set up although both are equally effective. 

As for clamping... all you need is some close cell foam (I use the really expensive stuff from Menard's at about $2 per roll  ) and a non-porous surface like melamine,  a nipple and a hose to the vacuum source.  Remember in a recent post by Matthew our FOG Guru of the picture of his paint can sitting on a "diving board" clamped to the MFT...  Now imagine the board being a piece of melamine & that Matthew drilled a hole in the board and attached a nipple on the under side of the board & a hose running from the nipple to a vacuum source, and between the flat bottom of the can of paint & the melamine in a gasket of closed cell foam tape...  Flip a switch (vacuum starts running) ... now try to tip over the paint can......  aprox. 18 lbs. per sq. in is now holding the can down... doesn't sound like much until you do the math.  That translates to over a ton of atmospheric pressure holding down a sq. ft. 

jim

 

[Dixon Peer]

I'm not sure exactly what Festool is up too.... however I have been doing vacuum clamping/bagging for years.  I made my 1st vacuum bag from a water bed & a broom stick   

I have used both venturi & vacuum pumps.  When you do vacuum bagging you can use a check value in line along with a vacuum  limit switch (like a pressure switch on a compressor but in reverse) to cycle the pump on when the vacuum drops below your set limit, thus it's only running to build up the vacuum & then shuts off.  However when you do vacuum clamping the pump runs continuously as long as clamping pressure is needed...  Imagine your compressor running continuously plus the "hiss" of a blow gun running wide open....   That's a venturi vacuum system.  The noise will DRIVE YOU CRAZY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!  You can buy a cheap venturi from Harbor Freight for about $20 that with a modest little compressor will allow you to do vacuum clamping (I will explain vacuum clamping shortly).  Although the venturi systems worked well the noise was unacceptable.  I build a vacuum pump from parts & added a limit switch for bagging.  I have had several pump set ups from diaphragm, to piston, to rotary vain but all even work well for pulling a vacuum for clamping and are MUCH more quite the a venturi/compressor set up although both are equally effective. 

As for clamping... all you need is some close cell foam (I use the really expensive stuff from Menard's at about $2 per roll  ) and a non-porous surface like melamine,  a nipple and a hose to the vacuum source.  Remember in a recent post by Matthew our FOG Guru of the picture of his paint can sitting on a "diving board" clamped to the MFT...  Now imagine the board being a piece of melamine & that Matthew drilled a hole in the board and attached a nipple on the under side of the board & a hose running from the nipple to a vacuum source, and between the flat bottom of the can of paint & the melamine in a gasket of closed cell foam tape...  Flip a switch (vacuum starts running) ... now try to tip over the paint can......  aprox. 18 lbs. per sq. in is now holding the can down... doesn't sound like much until you do the math.  That translates to over a ton of atmospheric pressure holding down a sq. ft. 

jim

Jim, et al...atmospheric pressure at sea level would be 14.7 lbs. per square inch.  All you'll get out of any vacuum pump is something under that, not 18 lbs.  I don't mean to pick nits, but in the interest of accuracy, I though the point important.

Here's a link:http://wiki.answers.com/Q/What_is_air_pressure_at_sea_level_in_all_the_different_units_of_pressure

 

[jonny round boy]

For those that can't download the full 41.2Mb file, here's the relevant 1/2 page:

[attachthumb=1]

Anyone care to translate it? :-\

 

[mysterium]

Hi Dixon,

You said"Jim, et al...atmospheric pressure at sea level would be 14.7 lbs. per square inch.  All you'll get out of any vacuum pump is something under that, not 18 lbs.  I don't mean to pick nits, but in the interest of accuracy, I though the point important."

Here's a link:http://wiki.answers.com/Q/What_is_air_pressure_at_sea_level_in_all_the_different_units_of_pressure


Thanks for the correction. 

My memory is a little faulty... but I did get the part about over a ton of pressure right.  Regardless of the mathematical theory the reality is vacuum bagging/clamping in fact works.

Thanks again, jim

 

[nickao]

"Atmospheric pressure is applying approximately 15(14.7 )pounds/sq.in. (psi at sea level) of  force
in  all directions. 

With the vacuum pump we  remove most  of the air from one side of  the wood (creating vacuum),
thereby the  atmosphere  pushes the wood  from  the other side.  This push or force is  easily  calculated  by 
reading  the vacuum gauge and multiplying the reading (called vacuum level) by .5.

Therefore, if you are applying 26"Hg to 1 sq.ft. of wood, you will generate 1872 lbs. of Clamping Force. (26 X .5 X 144 sq.in.). This force works to
hold wood for machining (routing, sawing, sanding, etc.) or for applying veneer or making built up laminations. "

I use the vacuum press everyday and also use my system for a vacuum clamp. No compressor system. 1872 lbs of evenly placed force over almost any size area only limited by the bag size is awesome!

I am building a vacuum clamping system into one of the MFT's.

I intend on using it to hold different project while I sand, etc.

My goal is to be able to place a piece of wood anywhere on the table, step on the foot switch and get instant clamping. Right now I use vacuum pucks I made.

I will post pictures once I complete it.

 

[mysterium]

Nickao,

I posted these pictures on the old yahoo FOG of the vacuum work bench I made years ago.  The vacuum pump I made sits on a shelf under the table then distributes vacuum via a manifold made up of gas valves to four places on the surface, and two places on each of the 4 vertical sides plus I can distribute to individual jigs.  I have "tee" squares; in 2' & 4' lengths and straight edges to 8', clamps for both inside (shown on the right on top of the table) & outside corners and I'll make a clamp as needed...

So an example of how you would use this...  let's say you are going to make a cutting board shaped like the state of Minnesota ( you have to ask why any one would want one but I have seen MN cutting boards for sale...)  1st I'd make a master template with finished edges out of melamine of MN, then drill a hole thru the face in the middle say at Minneapolis  : , apply close cell tape on both sides and place the template over a hole on the surface of the table.  I then would place a slightly oversized blank roughed out on the band saw on the template and apply vacuum.  Then I'd take a router with a flush trim bit to trim edges to match the master template, the I'd grab a sander to sand the face, then grab another router with a round over bit & one side is done.  Release the vacuum & flip over and apply vacuum, then sand the 2nd face, & then use the router with the round over to finish the cutting board and release the vacuum. 

Hope this helps,
jim

 

[brandon.nickel]

Is there any reason why a commercial vacuum pump intended for refrigeration work couldn't serve double duty as the pump for this system?  If so, where do you get the vacuum-operated relays to control them?  What kind of bags do you use when vacuum-bagging?

 

[Corwin]

1st I'd make a master template with finished edges out of melamine of MN, then drill a hole thru the face in the middle say at Minneapolis  : , apply close cell tape on both sides and place the template over a hole on the surface of the table.

Nice description!  But I want to see a show of hands from those that whipped out the map to see where Minneapolis is located.     ;D ;D

 

[Dan Clark]

Minneapolis?  Just west of New York City and just east of Seattle!  (Sort of.)

Dan.

 

[mysterium]

Brandon,

Refrigeration pumps work, I've heard of people using A/C pumps out of cars, using the intake side of a compressor, but not all pumps give the same cfm or pull as high vacuum.  And pumps pull very high cfm with no load but as the vacuum increases the cfm decreases.   www.surpluscenter.com is a good source with the selection they have of available products changing regularly.  Surplus Center is also where I got the limit switch I used for the unit shown in the pictures.  But I also used rotary vane units, refrigerator  pumps whatever works to pull a vacuum.   I even have a vacuum pump from a dentist office that at some point I intend on using to plumb thru my shop to distribute vacuum to multiple locations.

jim

 

[nickao]

Is there any reason why a commercial vacuum pump intended for refrigeration work couldn't serve double duty as the pump for this system?  If so, where do you get the vacuum-operated relays to control them?  What kind of bags do you use when vacuum-bagging?

I got a nice bag here polyurethane with  slippery coating 49" x 120".

Vinyl vs Polyuretahane

They also sell a few different kits to make a nice vacuum pump.

Build your own pump(press)

 

[Warrior]

Check these out. www.vac-clamp.com

Eiji

 

[semenza]

For those that can't download the full 41.2Mb file, here's the relevant 1/2 page:

[attachthumb=1]

Anyone care to translate it? :-\

Hi,

        And look at that - connections and ventilation built right into the systainer. That looks to be a highly portable set up, interesting.

    Seth