Spend My Money! (aka critique my new shop buildout)

[sansbury]

Greeetings all:

I’m in the unique position of building out a new shop setup from scratch and looking for some feedback before I spray a small fortune all over my local dealer’s counter.

I’ve primarily been a (mostly hobbyist) machinist but with my 26x42’ (interior) building almost ready I will have some space for proper woodworking. While it has been decades since I did much, as a young man I did a lot alongside my dad and a bit of GC work on the side so I know basic techniques.

My goals are probably mostly in the realm of what I’d call “utility” woodworking versus fine furniture making and the like. Small cabinet-type work, small outdoor shed-type buildings, those sorts of things. But having space and tools I’ll probably want to do more so who knows.

While my new building is a pretty good size about half of it is spoken for by my fiancée’s car and my machine shop. So I have been trying to avoid stuffing it full of big stationary tools right out of the gate. I had been focused on building out a movable 4x8 multi-tool bench with a jobsite saw, mitre saw, and router table, but when I put it in my 3D model with everything else, I didn’t like what I saw (no pun intended).

Then I had a bit of an epiphany and took a look at the Festool MFT approach and thought that maybe I was going about this entirely the wrong way. Building around an MFT cart, cutting table, track saw, etc would allow me to keep everything small and easily movable. I like the idea of keeping as much of my space flexible as possible.

I am also a big fan of Festool’s focus on dust collection as wood dust and machine tools are not a good combo. I had been starting to look at big dust collectors with fine filtration but the idea of being able to service everything with a good dust extractor is very appealing.

At the moment I already have a good ~15yo Bosch sliding miter saw and festool track saw that I inherited from my dad 10 years ago. I will also have a 2x4’ CNC router with a 1HP spindle which I use to process sheet materials more efficiently than a VMC. I am thinking that’s small enough that a good dust extractor+cyclone might be sufficient? I am also planning for one or more overhead air filters to minimize airborne crud.

With all that said, right now my thinking is to get something like the following:

- MFT 3 and a good basic assortment of clamps and some additional track
- STM 1800
- OF 1400 router
- DF 500 Domino
- EC 150/5 sander
- CT 36 AC extractor and CT-VA or Oneida dust deputy cyclone

In addition to the track saw and miter saw I also have a good basic load out of cordless tools in the Dewalt max and M12 systems. I’m considering upgrading my drill press to one of the Teknatool ones, and good basic CNC machine shop. I’m aware that there’s a very extensive catalog of attachments and fixtures for all of the above but before I dove too deep I wanted to get some opinions from the cloud.

My first project(s) would probably be an MFT cart along the lines of what Brent Shively posted on YouTube, plus some kind of workcenter/storage for the miter saw and drill press. Probably a material cart too.

I've attached some screenshots of the 3D model to give a sense of what the space is like. The two fixed pieces are the red blob which is my fiancee's car, and the VF2 (CNC mill). The car can live outside at times if I need the space for something but I do want her to be able to park inside most of the time. The VMC can move a little, but can't go over the basement due to weight. My thinking was to keep the area close to the doors for welding and other hot work so I could do it by open doors in the warmer part of the year. I'm in western Mass. so that is about four months of the year lol...

Anyway, thanks to anybody who reads this long first post and has any painfully-won advice to share  [big grin] Other than the building being basically done and the VF2 on the way, I haven't committed to anything yet.

 

[smorgasbord]

What do you expect to be building?

Jewelry boxes?
Entry doors?
Making your own baseboard and crown moldings?
Furniture?
Kitchen cabinets?
Built-in bookcases?

The size of what you build determines what available space you need to support, and in some cases move, stock.

 

[mino]

Whatever you do, with the luxury of a greenfield setup, it would be sacrilege to not incorporate two things into the setup:

• A position/place for a proper jointer/planer combination machine in the $3-5k range (when new). A 500lb+ machine will not be moved much, so needs to be placed strategically to allow proper long board infeed and outfeed spacing. This also implies space allocation for a small industrial dust collector somewhere nearby with an external air outlet option.
  

• A look into the various discussions about "soft" flooring amenable for actual humans walking a day around the shop. Horse mats, various tricks to put apartment-grade flooring above flexible materials etc. Just make sure to address this aspect at the get go.

In addition to that, consider a ventilation configuration where you can suck out (dusty/smelly) air pretty rapidly outside the building. Must not share any air shafts with living spaces. Not sure of your setting, but in many cases this is ridiculously easy to enable when designing the place while pretty costly to impossible adding later on..

EDIT: With the DC you will want it reasonably close to your CNC .. so it can double as a sucker from that machine/area.

 

[sansbury]

In addition to that, consider a ventilation configuration where you can suck out (dusty/smelly) air pretty rapidly outside the building.

Thanks for the suggestions.

Regarding ventilation, the current plan is for an oversized ducted ERV. In a pinch, doors and windows would work even faster at the cost of sucking in cold air.

 

[sansbury]

What do you expect to be building?

The size of what you build determines what available space you need to support, and in some cases move, stock.

Something like a coffee table or smaller bookshelf is probably the high end of what I’d do regularly.

Part of my thinking for having stuff on wheels as much as possible is to be able to reconfigure the space if needed to do something a bit bigger.

 

[bobtskutter]

I'm in the process of extending (slightly) my workshop and kitting it out to be more habitable.  So far the main focus for me has been on insulation and HVAC.  I plan to insulate the inside of the building with "space blanket" type insulation, then ply-line the walls.  The floor will be levelled and then also insulated with laminate style flooring.  I'll install a HVAC system incorporating a dust filtration system and MVHR to provide fresh air and remove stale internal air.  At least that's my plan!

My suggestion is make the place into somewhere you want to be, and then experiment with what works best and where to put it.

Bob

 

[sansbury]

My suggestion is make the place into somewhere you want to be, and then experiment with what works best and where to put it.

Bob

Oh yeah, I hear you. It’s insulated to residential standards since Mass. code requires that you meet those if you insulate it at all, even as an out building. I’m putting in a mini-split system since that’s the most practical solution for a detached building.

 

[BarneyD]

Are the long blue boxes rails for a bridge type crane? My first thought was to move the VF2 far away form the woodworking area. As you mentioned, machine tools and wood dust don't play well together. I assume the VF2 will be only for machining metal (not wood). Did you order a chip conveyor for it? Do you have a fork lift? How are you going to get the VF2 into the building? Sorry for all the questions.

I must say that I'm jealous.

Cheers

 

[smorgasbord]

Something like a coffee table or smaller bookshelf is probably the high end of what I’d do regularly.

Part of my thinking for having stuff on wheels as much as possible is to be able to reconfigure the space if needed to do something a bit bigger.

What I'd suggest is including in your mock-ups pieces of wood in the largest size you expect to normally handle on each machine. If you're going to buy 10' long boards or 4x8 sheets of plywood, mock those up and place them, say, on one side of the miter saw station, or on the table where you're going to run your track saw. Same for jointer and planer (and I do second the recommendation for a combo machine there - the changeover isn't that bad and the capacity/space considerings are great). And, then same for router table and tablesaw and bandsaw, etc - but for those you'll want space on both sides since the board moves.

And use the old advice to keep work surfaces at the same level as your equipment. My workbench doubles as an infeed to my tablesaw and router table, and my assembly table can be outfeed for the tablesaw. I needed to handle 15' long boards so I placed tools about 16' from the back wall of my garage and can open the garage door to get that additional outfeed space. I've made jewelry boxes and herb strippers as well as entry doors and 17' long moldings, so I have a wide range of needs.

 

[jeffinsgf]

I'm going to agree with Mino on a combo jointer/thickness planer and add to that a table saw. Those three are the foundation of woodworking. All beyond that are luxuries. You "could" use a track saw exclusively, but 90% of what you'll do will be compromised using a track saw instead of a table saw. The exception is sheet goods work, which the track saw handles beautifully. As for the jointer/thickness planer, relying on your supplier for straight, flat and square lumber is just asking for disappointment.

 

[sansbury]

Are the long blue boxes rails for a bridge type crane?

Yes, going to be either a 1000# or 2000# capacity manually-operated unit. Insane luxury item but I figure I only get to do this once!

My first thought was to move the VF2 far away form the woodworking area. As you mentioned, machine tools and wood dust don't play well together. I assume the VF2 will be only for machining metal (not wood). Did you order a chip conveyor for it? Do you have a fork lift? How are you going to get the VF2 into the building?

I have a rigger lined up to deliver it and place it, and yes, chip conveyor, coolant filter/sanitizer, and mist condenser.

My assumption on placement was that with a 26x42 interior, where I put it doesn't make too much difference since the dust and $#@! will be everywhere. So my focus has been more on just trying to have good dust extraction and air filtering. I'll probably get some big painter's tarps to cover the mill and lathe as well in case I'm going to do a lot of wood work or anything nasty. The placement is also limited because it can really only be in the area over solid ground. So I could move it closer to the doors but that's about it.

Ten years ago I had a few Chinese benchtop machines in a damp basement in the city with a 5'8" ceiling (I'm 5'9"). So it's not lost on me that this is a bit of an upgrade. I've been fortunate that some big risks I took over that time paid off well. I figure this is both cheaper and better for me than a coke habit or a third marriage like I've seen some people in similar circumstances do.

 

[cpw]

I would certainly consider a table saw.  My personal preference is a Sawstop PCS, which is a solidly built machine and IMO has become the standard for the serious hobbyist with lots of available accessories/support designed around it.

 

[SoonerFan]

[member=82933]sansbury[/member] my shop is almost exactly the same size. I have been in it 4 years. Below a a few things I would do the same and a few I would change:

Do the same:
1. Get a table saw and build a large out-feed/assembly table. I got a SawStop PCS. My out-feed table is large enough to store systainers in DIY sysports on both sides and sheet goods in between. Top is laminate which makes clean up a easy.

2. Use a mini split. I condition my shop with a mini split and it works great. I used spray foam for the walls.

3. Power/Bathroom. I had a 100 amp sub-panel installed and it has been great. Bathroom is great to save trips to our house and for clean up.

Do Different:
1. I would have designed in a dedicated place to spray paint. I built on an addition which will serve spray room.

2. Dust collection. I started by rolling my Jet DC tool to tool. Now I have it all connected with flexible hose. I am in process of converting to PVC pipe and 3D printing the connections I need. Would have started with PVC if doing over again.

3.  I have a double garage door. If doing over I would have used a single door to provide more wall space. Also would have dropped in a couple sky lights and eliminated a couple windows for wall space.

Good luck with the final decisions!

PS - I left build a bigger shop off of my do over list because it’s a given you’ll want a larger shop in a year or two  [big grin]

 

[TSO_Products]

[member=82933]sansbury[/member] – welcome to the FOG and your new shop in the heart of New England woodworking country!\
Lot's of good suggestions already. Let me add:

- Buy tools and equipment based on needs as they arise including “used”.
- Consider a relationship with an industrial machinery auction company in your area.

Enjoy [smile]
Hans

 

[sansbury]

Thanks [member=59331]TSO Products[/member] [member=28223]SoonerFan[/member] [member=63643]cpw[/member] for your comments!

In case it's not clear, the building is abut 90% complete, and all the major structural decisions are behind me. The general size and shape were determined primarily by site and zoning considerations, and this was about as big as I could build with our doing something that ruined the landscape or required potentially years of review. And to be honest, if I had 3000 square feet, I'd probably just fill it with bad ideas, so it's probably for the best  [big grin]

In terms of how to arrange the space, I'm thinking about it as being basically three rectangles of 14x28' or ~400ft2 each, defined largely by the space for the car and VMC needing to be more or less where they are. The VMC could go anywhere in the right 2/3 of the slab, but keeping it as far back from the doors as I can makes sense to keep the lane open in case I wanted to get both cars in there, e.g. in advance of a big storm.

Right now my goal is for the rear (left side) 15x27' space and the are directly in front of the car to be kept entirely flexible, with everything either up against the wall or on wheels. The one machine there now (2x4 CNC router) will be on leveling casters.

I did have time yesterday to pay a brief visit to the local Woodcraft store, which gave me a chance to see a bunch of things including the MFT/3 and STM 1800 tables in person, and also the Sawstop CTS, Contractor, and PCS saws. This was very useful.

I was surprised at how "small" the PCS felt in person, though to be fair it did not have any kind of outfeed table. I don't know how practical it is to move that type of saw around, but if it could be pushed up against a wall and moved back in under, say, 15 minutes, then I could imagine something like that being workable in this space. The same could be true for something like a smaller jointer, planer, and band saw.

This also gave me some time to think about "progression." My original question was, basically, am I an idiot to try initially building things out without a fixed table saw as the center of everything. I think the answer to that is now clearly "no." Nothing I am thinking about precludes me from adding a bigger saw down the road.

Likewise, if I knew absolutely that I would add the PCS or something like it in, say, 6-18 months, nothing I'd buy now would be wasted. Maybe I would find that I don't need both an MFT and the STM 1800, in which case I gather I'll be able to sell them easily enough for most of what I paid that I'm not risking too much $.

Anyway, that's where I'm at in this moment. Give me a couple more days to think about it and I'll probably come up with yet another crazy idea.

 

[cpw]

If you purchase a PCS, you should buy the ICS mobile base and adapter kit.  There is a hydraulic jack that lifts the entire saw + extension table up with 2-3 presses of your foot.  If you have a reasonably smooth concrete floor it wheels around like a dream after that.  It's the best mobile base I've ever used.

I have a folding outfeed table on mine, though admittedly, it never gets folded because I very rarely move the saw.  On the rare occasions I, I am very happy that there is the mobile base though.

 

[jeffinsgf]

I'll agree with cpw...the ICS mobile base with the PCS adapter makes the PCS about as mobile as a table saw can be.

In your shoes, I would pass on the 1800 and build a pedestal style assembly bench/outfeed table you could bring the table saw to when you needed it. Mine is 36" x 60" which is more than adequate to support full sheets for track saw work.

 

[mino]

...
Anyway, that's where I'm at in this moment. Give me a couple more days to think about it and I'll probably come up with yet another crazy idea.

I will stick to my comment on having a place to plane/thickness a long board (think 16' "in" + 5' machine + 16' "out"). With the arrangement you have there, the only truly long place gets blocked by the car (the combo machine would need to be just in front of it).

Not sure of your other arrangements, but I would look to "move" the car parking to the other side of the garage and do some smaller moves to accommodate that Something along these lines:

 

[sansbury]

...
Anyway, that's where I'm at in this moment. Give me a couple more days to think about it and I'll probably come up with yet another crazy idea.

I will stick to my comment on having a place to plane/thickness a long board (think 16' "in" + 5' machine + 16' "out"). With the arrangement you have there, the only truly long place gets blocked by the car (the combo machine would need to be just in front of it).

Not sure of your other arrangements, but I would look to "move" the car parking to the other side of the garage and do some smaller moves to accommodate that Something along these lines:

You’re way overestimating the amount and scale of woodworking I’m likely to do  ;D

The area in front of the other door is reserved for the metal shop, and that’s actually the reason I built this whole building. That stuff is much harder to move/work around than woodworking equipment. Also the big CNC mill can’t be over the basement, it weighs 8000# and that floor is only rated for a 2500# point load.

If I could put a 6-8” jointer on a mobile base then I could move it to where the car is for the day or weekend. But I really don’t think I have any need to process 16’ lengths whole. I’m not saying others don’t but I’m primarily a machinist who builds some stuff on the side.