Square drive bits for Centrotec

lcc said:
Hi,fellow festool fanatics; just use a grinder to knock the edges of of the hex of  a 2" long #1,#2,#3 square drive and grind a detent relief
so that it is captured in the chuck.Don't grind a tip you will lose the surface hardness. All ss exterior finish and inside finish screws are now Robertson drive.There are other "phillips" type screws,reed and prince,phearson these two previous are used in wooden boat building.one size bit will fit #4 to an #16 screw. The taper is the same , the cross grows exponentialy as the size screw increases and the shaft size of the bit gets larger yet they will work .

Been there, done that--put them in a spigot chuck on the lathe and used some files to adapt them. It works. But it's not ideal and certainly not as precise as a native solution would hopefully be.
 
HowardH said:
I second the GRK screws.  I found some locally at Rockler, they had a decent selection and when combined with the centrotec Torx pattern bits, they work great!  It's nice being able to quickly switch between the driver and drill bits and those torx patterns simply don't slip.  I always thought one screw is like another (don't go there, please  :P) but there is a difference!  I have a supply of square drive I have to use up but after that, it's GRK all the way.  I will need to buy a few thousand of them this fall when I replace my deck.  Their composite screws should work well. 

Got a website link?
 
I have to admint, I was a "No square drive Festool hater" until I found the Centrotec Bit Holder "Bhs 65mm".  Here is a link;

http://www.festoolusa.com/products/cordless-drills/centrotec-drill-bits/pilot-bit-with-depth-stop/centrotec-bit-holder-bhs-65mm-492648.html

It has a locking collar, and with short hex shank bits, it's not longer combined than a Centrotec Festool bit.  The only downsides are that it is slightly floppy, but way better than more magnetic holders.  And, if you have a recess and need a longer shaft bit, the combo would likely be longer than a Centrotec bit.  I'd prefer a centrotec solution, but this $29.50 locking collar bit holder is darn good.
 
Joe Jensen said:
I have to admint, I was a "No square drive Festool hater" until I found the Centrotec Bit Holder "Bhs 65mm".  Here is a link;

http://www.festoolusa.com/products/cordless-drills/centrotec-drill-bits/pilot-bit-with-depth-stop/centrotec-bit-holder-bhs-65mm-492648.html

It has a locking collar, and with short hex shank bits, it's not longer combined than a Centrotec Festool bit.  The only downsides are that it is slightly floppy, but way better than more magnetic holders.  And, if you have a recess and need a longer shaft bit, the combo would likely be longer than a Centrotec bit.  I'd prefer a centrotec solution, but this $29.50 locking collar bit holder is darn good.
This does seem like a good compromise for those times when diameter isn't an issue.  I have to admit the biggest complaint I have about using square drive bits in the Centrotec bit extender is leaving the bit stuck in the screw head.....this would solve that.

But for those occasions were you dont want the extra bit diameter or bit length, a Centrotec bit would sure be nice.  I'd even be happy to pay less money for a lesser quality Centrotec bit.

 
Anyone want to buy the couple hundred dollars worth of square drive screws and bits I bought from McFeelys last year  >:(

I'd like to switch, but a gradual shift isn't very fun or workable, and I hate to dump all the square drive I have.

Also, is there a great online source ala Mc Feelys for the GRKs?
 
their videos are something else.  They can make a screw 3' long!  :o  Of course the demo would have been better had they used a T15 to drive them.  :D  These guys have them but I have never purchased anything from them.
 
Dan Clark said:
Here's another vendor that carries nothing but Torx screws: http://screw-products.com/. 

Doesn't look like Torx to me..... The inner and outer edges of a Torx profile are rounded, which is actually a design parameter. It helps to distribute the torque load over a wider part of the circumference, reducing wear significantly and increasing effectiveness when slight wear or minor misfitting occurs.
Those are stardrives - they've been around a while, be it obscure. There's also a 12-point version, that was used in large bolts that had to be torqued very precisely.
European car manufacturers used these 12 point stardrives on cilinderhead bolts, especially the "stretched" single-use bolts. They may still use them, but the majority is Torx now.....

Come on guys, get aboard the Torx-train.... you won't regret.  [cool]

Regards,

Job

 
Job,

They're Torx.  Check out the drawings and pics on the first page of the catalog: http://screw-products.com/pdfs/spi-retail.pdf.  I've used Screw-Products, GRK, and other brand screws with Torx bits.   GRK are better quality, but the heads are the same.

I'm pretty sure they call them "Star Drive" because they think it's a more marketable name for Americans.   They sell bits in T10 to T40 sizes: http://www.screw-products.com/drive-bits.htm.  Hmmm...   I wonder what the "T" means?   [doh]

Dan.

p.s. I've been on the Torx-train for years.   I don't understand the reticence to move in that direction.
 
Dan Clark said:
Job,

They're Torx.  Check out the drawings and pics on the first page of the catalog: http://screw-products.com/pdfs/spi-retail.pdf.   I've used Screw-Products, GRK, and other brand screws with Torx bits.     

I'm pretty sure they call them "Star Drive" because they think it's a more marketable name for Americans.   They sell bits in T10 to T40 sizes: http://www.screw-products.com/drive-bits.htm.  Hmmm...   I wonder what the "T" means?   [doh]

Dan.

Dan,

Thanks for the links, one thing about your links, when you include a "period" at the end of them they don't work unless the period is deleted.
 
Steve-CO said:
Dan Clark said:

Dan,

Thanks for the links, one thing about your links, when you include a "period" at the end of them they don't work unless the period is deleted.
Steve,

Thanks for the heads-up.  It's fixed now.  

Unfortunately this is a problem with some forum software packages (like SMF) because they include periods when they parse the url address.  When you place a url at the end of a sentence (like I normally do) and end the sentence with a period, the SMF software includes the period with the link.  It's irritating.  

Other software packages (like vBulletin) don't have this problem.  When you include a URL address and close it with a period, the software ignores the period when creating the link.  

So why doesn't Festool move to the another forum software package?   Because it's huge effort when you have a well-established, customized forum like FOG.   Other forum packages have some nice features, but I don't think it's worth the risk and effort to convert.  I wouldn't do it and don't recommend it to others.

Regards,

Dan.
 
Dan Clark said:
I'm pretty sure they call them "Star Drive" because they think it's a more marketable name for Americans.

Torx is a trademarked brand and you have to pay a license to use that name.  Star drive is the same thing without paying the licensing basically.  That's my understanding from my days at a certain screw retailer.
 
OK Dan, you've convinced me - sort of.
The link to the PDF you supplied sported some Torx heads, though some of the recesses look a bit "off-standard".
There's only two Torx profiles:  the Torx and the Torx-Plus ( slightly wider lobes, far less common ),  the profile's ratio's are the same throughout the size range.
( And there's TTAP, and ofcourse tamper-resistant versions of the lot )

It's just that the picture you linked to in your earlier post doesn't really resemble a Torx profile, it's "edgy" instead of "lobe-like", and that nullifies part of the advantages.
And apart from that, the name "star drive" has been used for the sharp-edged variant in 6- and 12-point (more common, aka spline-drive)  configuration as well, and they've been around longer than Torx, for as far as I know - hence my confusion.

Anyhow: I'm glad you're aboard the Torx-train - it's a smooth ride, isn't it ?

I think I can conclude with a piece of advice that both parties can relate to:

Screw Robertson !  [cool]

Regards,

Job

 
jvsteenb said:
....Screw Robertson !  [cool]

Regards,

Job

Unless you're a Canuck (Canadian) and then you're getting screwed by Robertson because that's all you can get up there.  [wink]
 
jvsteenb said:
Dan Clark said:
Here's another vendor that carries nothing but Torx screws: http://screw-products.com

Doesn't look like Torx to me..... The inner and outer edges of a Torx profile are rounded, which is actually a design parameter. It helps to distribute the torque load over a wider part of the circumference, reducing wear significantly and increasing effectiveness when slight wear or minor misfitting occurs.

Shane Holland said:
Torx is a trademarked brand and you have to pay a license to use that name.  Star drive is the same thing without paying the licensing basically.  That's my understanding from my days at a certain screw retailer.

I agree with Job (jvsteenb) and Shane. The photo at http://screw-products.com is this:

Torx_Lookalike.jpg


Although the patent has lapsed, TORX is still a trademarked name in the USA, Canada, UK and other other countries and Acument Global Technologies allow selected manufacturers to manufacture TORX products under license. They naturally take a poor view of manufacturers making look-alike products, as the following except from their TORX Drive System brochure shows (note the curved walls of the "Authentic TORX Drive bit"):

Genuine_Torx.jpg


Their Licensing Program Review brochure shows that they hunt down companies of items which are sold TORX, but are not the genuine licensed article or manufactured to the correct standards:

Trademark Usage and Counterfeits
Our licensed product trademarks are currently registered in 78 countries and registered with United States Customs.
Our trademarks are known and recognized worldwide.
It is imperative that any product infringement is stopped immediately. By not doing so, end users not only receive an inferior product, but the product could become unrecognizable in the marketplace and take on a generic connotation. We then run the risk of losing our reputation in the marketplace.
We are very active in the pursuit of counterfeit activity.
We attend trade shows, review trade journals, and do key-word searches on the internet. We also rely heavily on our licensees to report violations. We are committed to pursue all trademark infringements and counterfeits brought to our attention and will use any resources, including legal action, to protect these trademarks and patents. We are protecting not only our interests, but the interests of our licensees.
As a licensee, training on how to spot illegal product is an important part of the package. The confidential product binders go into detail explaining the proper usage of the trademarks so there is no mistaking a genuine product versus a fake.

To get round these legal problems, manufacturers of TORX-like items often call them "star drives" or "star bits" or something similar. They don't have to pay a license fee or make them to the strict TORX standards, but that naturally means that the shape of the star recess will vary a bit from manufacturer to manufacturer. That, in turn, means that getting a good fit between bit and screwhead can be difficult.

A good example of this is the screw-products.com own brochure, where close examination of a selection of their "Star Drive" heads will reveal several different designs:

Different_Star_Heads.jpg


Forrest

 
We have decent access to TORX screws through Fastenal up here.

TORX is excellent for hi-torque applications, all my concrete screws are TORX.  For softwoods the robertson is king since it holds itself on the drive better without the use of a magnet.  Too bad we can't all standardize on the Wurth screws with their special tapered star-type end.
 
Especially for these applications, there's TTAP. It's an authentic Torx profile ( acually I should state TORX profile ) with a small cilindrical cone added to the tip of the driver/bottom of the recess. It may be driven with a standard Torx bit, but then you don't get the added advantage of the hold-fast wedging action.
However: I get around with standard Torx, they don't tend to fall off, even when screwing top-down a simple magnetig bitholder is enough to hold the screw, and they NEVER stick in the screw when done ( the main reason a standard hex-drive will drive me nuts from time to time instead of just driving nuts ( and bolts and screws, of course ).

Another nice design is the UniScrew, it's sort of a stepped hex-drive that has only one bit-size. The depth of the recess varies with the screwsize, and determines how much of the size-steps are actually used. In a pinch, they can be loosend with a standard hex key. Nice design - having only one bit size without the usual trade-offs is a big pro. I like 'm a lot, but they're far from common.

Regards,

Job

 
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