Stain or Dye

[Mike Goetzke]

I’m going to build a crib for my son & daughter in law. She wants a gray look that you can still see the grain. I mostly use stain my whole life but would a dye be better?

Thanks

(Side note - I had a bad experience with dye. My daughter wanted a pink sewing table so I used dye. I checked with the manufactures ahead of time for compatibility between dye and topcoat. The topcoat supplier even said he used the same dye with his finish w/o issue. Well, the pink wood turned bright orange with a top coat. I ended up adding dye to the topcoat and was able to make it pink again.)

 

[Packard]

None of my stains claim to be non-toxic.  Are dyes non-toxic?

Children teethe until they are 2 to 2-1/2 years of age.  Some of that is crib-age.  I would want a non-toxic finish.

Shellac is generally recognized as safe and non-toxic.  And shellac comes in different shades.  Clear and amber being the ones I see most often.  That would be one option.

I am making some wood toys now and this topic is of interest to me.

 

[simonh]

I was a long-time reluctant to try Rubio Monocoat because of the hype and influencers who were pushing the system (I'm very cynical of the whole YouTube/Instagram marketing). After various frustrating experiences with dyes and water based on walnut I tried some Rubio Pure and it wasn't what I was looking for. Eventually, another user suggested I try chocolate and black and that got the result I had in my mind.  I later went on the Rubio King of Colours training day (actually quite good as for around the equivalent of $15 which they give to charity anyway) and got more insight into the full range of colours and products. I ended up winning a competition and got the entire sample set so I could play more at home.

Anyway, after a long introduction, I did finish a pine box made for my wife with the Silver Grey which has metallic bits in it. I liked the end result as the grain was still visible. There are lots of different greys in the range too such as Titanium. May be worth a try if you are looking to try something different (they also do Pomegranate Pink that might have worked for the sewing table).

EDIT: Rubio does claim their Oil-2c product is safe for toys:https://service.rubiomonocoat.com/toy-safety

 

[jeffinsgf]

Mike,

I recently used aniline dye for the first time on a couple toys I made for Christmas gifts. I was after bright colors, so no sure if "gray" is achievable, but I can say the grain still pops nicely with these. Here's the waddle duck with colors mixed from a primary color kit. There was a black in the kit...not sure how thin you would have to cut it to get gray.

 

[peter halle]

I have just used Transtint dye for the first time and have watched a bunch of videos.  Although I also have the Keda dyes mentioned in this video.  Experimentation is required for all dye work including a test with your final finish on it.  You may have to do multiple coats.  I highly doubt that any of the dyes will be considered food safe due to the metals in them.  But just in case you are interested, here is a video making grey: 

Peter

 

[mrFinpgh]

If you used a very dilute solution of vinegar and iron, you can make wood look grey. The same solution in a higher concentration will make it look black.

Of course, you will have some risk in controlling the strength of the reaction, but it might be a reasonable solution here.

 

[luvmytoolz]

If you used a very dilute solution of vinegar and iron, you can make wood look grey. The same solution in a higher concentration will make it look black.

Of course, you will have some risk in controlling the strength of the reaction, but it might be a reasonable solution here.

This iron acetate solution will only work on woods with reasonable to high tannin content, to use it on any timber to get rich black, you can first brush on some tea (high tannin content) to add moderate amount of tannins, or even better, get some Querbracho powder (natural powder derived from bark so food safe) from a fabric or art supply and brush on a weak solution providing tannin overload.

 

[rmwarren]

[member=4518]Mike Goetzke[/member] if you want to experiment with Querbracho DM me your address and I'll mail you some. I've got an unfinished ash project I bought it for a while back and there's probably a lifetime supply sitting in a drawer still.

Aside from the Querbracho all you need is vinegar and steel wool.

RMW

 

[luvmytoolz]

[member=4518]Mike Goetzke[/member] if you want to experiment with Querbracho DM me your address and I'll mail you some. I've got an unfinished ash project I bought it for a while back and there's probably a lifetime supply sitting in a drawer still.

Aside from the Querbracho all you need is vinegar and steel wool.

RMW

Lifetime supply, I know all about that!

I had no idea Querbracho was so strong, and bought 4 x 1kg bags thinking it should do me for a number of years worth of projects! I wouldn't be able to use it in 3 of my lifetimes!

But it does work magic, I've never gotten such a rich jet black like it, and it doesn't fade easily either.

 

[Packard]

If you used a very dilute solution of vinegar and iron, you can make wood look grey. The same solution in a higher concentration will make it look black.

Of course, you will have some risk in controlling the strength of the reaction, but it might be a reasonable solution here.

This iron acetate solution will only work on woods with reasonable to high tannin content, to use it on any timber to get rich black, you can first brush on some tea (high tannin content) to add moderate amount of tannins, or even better, get some Querbracho powder (natural powder derived from bark so food safe) from a fabric or art supply and brush on a weak solution providing tannin overload.

I read that first using tea as a stain will enhance the levels of tannin for a stronger effect.  No personal knowledge on that, however.

 

[Steve1]

I have used General Finishes dye stains.  I believe these are dyes, and the "stain" word in the product name is just marketing so consumers know what the product is used for.
They come in a wide variety of colors, and can be mixed to modify the color, or thinned to reduce the color.

Where you messed up on your previous attempt was not doing some samples of your finish, so you know exactly what it looks like when complete.    I did this to maple samples with various mixes of GF dye stain, with topcoat, to conclude on which I liked best  (#6 won).  Yes it get a bit expensive buying a can of stain and possibly not using it, but after all the work and cost of building the crib, is the cost of a can a stain really relevant ?

(I have a photo of my six different samples, but forum seems to be having a bad hair day and won't let me post it)

 

[Mike Goetzke]

Thanks for the help. I was preparing because this is my sons first child and a very nervous mother. For my first grandchild I did the research and many finishes become non-toxic if you let them cure for 30 days or more. Also, if you stain I remember a hard topcoat like urethane is recommended.

When you see the various stained cribs online including the gray ones I'm sure they used products that had VOC's to start with.

I'm interested in the home-brew stain mentioned above and may look into it.

 

[Mike Goetzke]

I was a long-time reluctant to try Rubio Monocoat because of the hype and influencers who were pushing the system (I'm very cynical of the whole YouTube/Instagram marketing). After various frustrating experiences with dyes and water based on walnut I tried some Rubio Pure and it wasn't what I was looking for. Eventually, another user suggested I try chocolate and black and that got the result I had in my mind.  I later went on the Rubio King of Colours training day (actually quite good as for around the equivalent of $15 which they give to charity anyway) and got more insight into the full range of colours and products. I ended up winning a competition and got the entire sample set so I could play more at home.

Anyway, after a long introduction, I did finish a pine box made for my wife with the Silver Grey which has metallic bits in it. I liked the end result as the grain was still visible. There are lots of different greys in the range too such as Titanium. May be worth a try if you are looking to try something different (they also do Pomegranate Pink that might have worked for the sewing table).

EDIT: Rubio does claim their Oil-2c product is safe for toys:https://service.rubiomonocoat.com/toy-safety

I looked at this and will seem to satisfy my daughter-in-laws safety concerns.

 

[Packard]

Your Daughter-In-Law may have read this from the Consumer Products Safety Commission:
https://www.cpsc.gov/Newsroom/News-Releases/2012/CPSC-Sets-Crib-Safety-Standards

But, whatever you do, do not allow her to read this: (Full set of CPSI documents on crib safety). It might even scare you enough to pick some other project for the new baby.
https://www.federalregister.gov/doc...cribs-and-non-full-size-baby-cribs-final-rule

 

[Mike Goetzke]

Your Daughter-In-Law may have read this from the Consumer Products Safety Commission:
https://www.cpsc.gov/Newsroom/News-Releases/2012/CPSC-Sets-Crib-Safety-Standards

But, whatever you do, do not allow her to read this: (Full set of CPSI documents on crib safety). It might even scare you enough to pick some other project for the new baby.
https://www.federalregister.gov/doc...cribs-and-non-full-size-baby-cribs-final-rule

Thanks - yes I reviewed this before building the first crib and found the plans I used from an old WOOD magazine did not meet the standards so I had to modify them.

 

[Packard]

Cribs are too scary for me.  If somehow it became the cause of an accident, I would have a hard time getting over that.

I vowed never to make one.

Instead, if it comes up, I will make a Montessori Learning Tower (for ages 18 months and older.  The don’t list for how much older, but the images show kids about 6 or 7 years old). Most of the designs are adjustable for height. Some are made from plywood.  I sketched out one made from 1-1/2” square pine joined with 1/2” dowels.    I would gift it now, and they could use it later on.  Still a bit scary, but not so much as a crib.

 

[luvmytoolz]

If you used a very dilute solution of vinegar and iron, you can make wood look grey. The same solution in a higher concentration will make it look black.

Of course, you will have some risk in controlling the strength of the reaction, but it might be a reasonable solution here.

This iron acetate solution will only work on woods with reasonable to high tannin content, to use it on any timber to get rich black, you can first brush on some tea (high tannin content) to add moderate amount of tannins, or even better, get some Querbracho powder (natural powder derived from bark so food safe) from a fabric or art supply and brush on a weak solution providing tannin overload.

I read that first using tea as a stain will enhance the levels of tannin for a stronger effect.  No personal knowledge on that, however.

As I mentioned above, tea will only add a moderate amount of tannins, for timber needing more you'd need to use more teabags and let them soak longer to have a solution that will supply more. Querbracho does this in buckets, it's amazingly potent.

 

[Packard]

If you used a very dilute solution of vinegar and iron, you can make wood look grey. The same solution in a higher concentration will make it look black.

Of course, you will have some risk in controlling the strength of the reaction, but it might be a reasonable solution here.

(natural powder derived from bark so food safe) from a fabric or art supply and brush on a weak solution providing tannin overload.

Natural” is a poor measure of toxicity.  Many toxins occur in nature. It is better to determine specifically if that chemical is safe.

A google search shows that querbrach is not entirely benign, but perhaps in too small a quantity in a wood finish to do much damage.
https://www.google.com/search?q=Querbracho toxicity&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&client=firefox-b-1-m
https://www.fda.gov/food/chemical-contaminants-pesticides/natural-toxins-food

 

[luvmytoolz]

If you used a very dilute solution of vinegar and iron, you can make wood look grey. The same solution in a higher concentration will make it look black.

Of course, you will have some risk in controlling the strength of the reaction, but it might be a reasonable solution here.

(natural powder derived from bark so food safe) from a fabric or art supply and brush on a weak solution providing tannin overload.

“Natural” is a poor measure of toxicity.  Many toxins occur in nature. It is better to determine specifically if that chemical is safe.

A google search shows that querbrach is not entirely benign, but perhaps in too small a quantity in a wood finish to do much damage.
https://www.google.com/search?q=Querbracho toxicity&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&client=firefox-b-1-m
https://www.fda.gov/food/chemical-contaminants-pesticides/natural-toxins-food

To put it into perspective, when I make the iron acetate solution I make about 500ml using the equivalent of 4-5 steelo pads (but actually 0000 that comes on a roll), but for the Querbracho, about 1/2 teaspoon in a cup of water will have very coverage. You'd also be applying a finish of some sort I would expect, which would reduce any possible risks exponentially further.

 

[smorgasbord]

But, whatever you do, do not allow her to read this: (Full set of CPSI documents on crib safety). It might even scare you enough to pick some other project for the new baby.

While I agree that any child's death is tragic and should be avoided if possible, it does concern me that the CPSC is looking at such small data sets. To summarize:

Before the latest rules, over a period of 29 months:
• 1,675 crib-related injuries, 3% of which required hospitalization
• 40 deaths related to flaws in the crib design/construction
• No categorization on age or condition of crib. Some reported as obviously over 15 years old with hardware never retightened, and some presumably assembled/reassembled incorrectly, including with missing hardware.

Given that in 2008 alone, 4,247,694 births occurred in the US, it seems safe to assume that over a 29 month period least 10 million babies were in cribs, probably more. The death stat the CPSC looked at therefore equates to 1 out of 250 thousand babies, which is less than the death stat from lightning killing people every year. The death stat for baby choking deaths amounts to 175 deaths over that same 29 month period.

Just some perspective to help parents decide on crib safety.

I think about California's portable gasoline container laws that forced the replacement of simple nozzles with all sorts of spring-loaded contraptions that often failed and probably caused more gas spillage/inhalation in use. While some of these laws are good, some fail in practice.

Which brings me to one of my favorite sayings:

In theory, theory and practice are the same.
In practice, they're different.