strip timber flooring repair, i need more information

[dirtydeeds]

ive been asked to look at a patch repair of a strip timber floor. the repair area is about 2 sq metres (20 sq foot) thankfully its in a hidden area of a library in excess of 2000 sq foot laid in 1926

pricing isnt the problem, its the glue i need help with

this afternoon i spoke to the best in the business, because hes the best he wont give me the details, i dont blame him

the explanation is longish so bear with me

the strips are oak and wenge or ash and wenge 2~1/4 and 3 inch wide and only 1/4 thick butt jointed and bonded to the sub floor with hot melt bitumin. the standard of the day

the subfloor is 6 inch pine boards

it isnt a heritage site or conservation floor so the hot melt bitumin isnt a requirement and being a library the fire risk is out of the question

the suggested glue is a 2 pack polyurethane (not cold bitumin) so my question is can somebody give me a trade name of a suitable product

after mixing it sounds like it needs to be a thin consistancy rather than like a stiff 2 pack filler

i dont work for this guy and its me who has called him the best in the business

look at this guys work, "its quite good"
http://wideboards.com/Windsor.php

 

[Bill in seattle]

DD
If pricing is not an issue and you say this guy is the best, why not hire him to do the job and you be the super. You might not make as much for yourself, but you both make money and you might learn something along the way.

 

[Eli]

Damn Bill, I like the way you think. Earn while you learn.

 

[dirtydeeds]

bill my first suggestion was "you need a floor specialist in, im just a carpenter"

they dont want a specialist, personally i think their descision is daft

i know most of the processes involved in a floor like this, just looking at it tells you how its built hence the comment about pricing not being a problem. when i comes to it "im a carpenter, its wood, and i do wood"

essentially the job is to repair a timber floor, its just happens to be far more complicated than a bit of laminate and needs detailed attention to timber preparation, fitting and finishing, this includes research

i seem to get asked to do renovation and refurbishment that most carpenters wont touch

 

[Eli]

I don't know about in Kent, but that's where they hide the money everywhere else, in jobs nobody will touch. Make them sign a hold harmless agreement, and commence work at 1.5 cost.

 

[dirtydeeds]

agreed eli some clients stack contingencies in these places

normally i give quotes, that way they client knows the amount with almost no detail

ill consider your suggestion of daywork plus materials and a percentge but i dont like them much

ive lost jobs follow up jobs becasue the labour and materials list from the invoice has been passed over "to be looked at"

suddenly youve lost the work by less than a days wages to the guy who wouldnt touch it before

a detailed listing can give away 90% of the process. i hate giving cowboys and chancers free lessons

yes the price will have more than the usual caveats, and materials wont get ordered or machined without an up front payment

 

[Eli]

I don't think I'd pass over a detailed list of material. But I would walk the job with them and describe the difference between you doing it and somebody else doing it. How else will they have anything to go on to make their decision other than price? If I walked into a store and two stereos that had the exact same features were different by a day's wages in price, I'd pick the cheapest one. But if I knew one brand was more reliable and longer lasting than the other, I'd buy that one, regardless of price.

You know what, we just had a long convo about this very thing over on JLC. The consensus is that trust is the thing you need to get first from a person you want to book a job with, and you have to give yours freely to get it. Informing the client with as much information as you have shows them you trust them and care about them, and care about the job being done right. I think in today's market, the consumer is often paying more for the experience. By that I mean how they are treated, the perceived or real quality of the work, and the feeling that the purchase was good value (which doesn't necessarily mean cheap)

If they get 90% of the process through the materials list, and then book some trunk slammer who underbids you, they would suck as a client anyway. I say let them go. I'm sure you've had the embarrassed callbacks later to 'fix' something that wasn't done right. Charge them now or charge them then. I find if I'm honest with somebody about how much something will cost, and show them why, there's a pretty good chance I'm doing the job. If not, and they tell me they went with a lower bid, I always tell them to keep my number, and give me a call if they need any help in the future.

 

[Bill in seattle]

DD
Eli is right on track.
Also, get to know the people and find out as much as you can about them as well. Maybe asking them for some explanations why they need such detail. If this is a big enough deal  for them to get this done right but they don't want to hire a specialist I'd be a little wary. Try to figure out if  they are looking for a champagne job on a beer budget and are using you to gather info to tell someone else what to do, might be better to walk away and let this one go. You have to sell them on YOU, how you are going to do the job, and what you are going to do to make sure they will be satisfied with your job when you are done.  They have to feel as comfortable with you as you have to feel with them.
They may have had some bad experiences in the past with other jobs and now they are just more cautious. Never hurts to ask in a polite manner.
Also If you are not completely confident of your ability to do this job, and take it on you best have a pre planned backup that can kick in before it gets ugly. Remember the adage CYA.
I am finding that people are asking more questions and are being better educated about the work they hire people to do today.
Regards
Bill

 

[Dave Ronyak]

DirtyDeeds,

I have dealt with the same problem, but on a slightly smaller scale.  The main floor of the older portion of my home has concrete floors covered with 9" x 9" oak parquet squares made by Bruce Flooring (now part of Armstrong).  I needed to replace some of them due to the previous owner allowing water to seep in under a sliding doorway - the contractor who installed the sliding door had not properly flashed and sealed the outside of the threshold.  The oak squares were bonded with bituminous adhesive, but were delaminating and discolored from reaction with the iron nails someone had used near the edges.  I removed the old, damaged squares by sawing almost through their thickness, then carefully chopping out the rest and clearing the tongue or groove on the adjaced tiles that were to remain in place.  After much looking, I found a couple of boxes of the same product (no longer manufactured except on special order) at a professional wood flooring specialist company.  They recommended a polyurethand adhesive mastic for installation of the replacement tiles.  That product was also made by Bruce (Armstrong).  It came in a 1 gallon metal can.  Beware that this 1-component, solvent free polyurethane mastic formula cures (chemically cross links) due to exposure to moisture, including moisture in the air.  So once you open the can, plan on using it within a few weeks at most, because even if you reseal it immediately after removing some from the can as I did, it will become a solid mass upon storage for a few months.

Here is a URL link to an dealer of Armstrong flooring products. http://www.flooringwarehousedirect.com/armstrong_proconnect_adhesive_1_gallon.php

Here is another product (which I think may be better):http://www.hectorshardware.biz/shop/product.asp?dept_id=20101&sku=273929&

Best wishes.  I hope you can find a suitable adhesive locally.  My repaired area has been installed for 6 years and there have been no problems.

Dave R., near Kent, Ohio, USA

 

[dirtydeeds]

thanks for the thoughts on dealing with the customer

its generally the way i like to work telling them what will be done

the ideas on the glue are helpfull

i ran a test piece through the thicknesser yesterday so i know the oak doesnt smash at 6.4mm (1/4)

from a previous comment the floor will go down at 6.4 and get sanded to level 

 

[Eli]

Sorry, you didn't really ask about customer relations, we got sidetracked. What about Sika products?

 

[dirtydeeds]

eli its never wrong to give gentle reminders about customer relations

ive had a longish chat with a local flooring supplier today and we've come up with what looks like a suitable product its Laycol 5500