Swirl marks with Rotex 150

[mastercabman]

I hope i can get some answers on this.I have a little project at home,redoing my daughter's room.She is becoming a teenager and the pink room is no longer her style! [laughing]
So i am repainting the room and i also pulled the carpet out.The wife and i decided that maybe we should go with the hardwood floor.I have oak hardwood floor thru out the house but when we moved in.my wife wanted carpet.The hardwood floor needed to be redone.
I decided to sand the floor down myself with my rotex,i know it's not really the right tool but i just wanted to see what it the floor look like when it's redone.It's not a real big room.
The floor had a stain applied.this floor is pretty old(1939)I don't think the floor has been redone in a very long time.So i started with Saphir P36 on aggressive mode(rotation)It took a while but It did the job.I also had to replace a few pieces of oak but it's allright.
But then i put on some P120 Rubin paper to sand it smooth.I was told that 100 grit but 120 is all i have.This happen before,with the vac and without the vac.
I get swirly marks the same size as those holes on the edge of the paper.I can't even sand them down with the same paper.
Then i put on P220 brilliant 2 and it did better.Took out some marks but not all.Maybe if i had P120 it would done it.
So,what am i doing wrong? Is it me? The sander? The paper?      I have ask this question before(Don't remember where)And never got a real answer.
Does anyone else have this problem?  Also,i used a wood filler designed for hardwood floor,it is color match for red oak and thin so that you can trowel it down.Somewhat like carpenter wood filler but much thinner.It looked good when you put it on but when i sanded it,(with the rubin paper)It turned almost white.Does anyone knows what could be the problem?

 

[Brice Burrell]

Just to be clear, your swirls aren't from the aggressive sanding phase but finer swirls from the finer grits? I'd say never try to remove swirl marks by moving up to a finer grit, that only makes them harder to remove them.

Swirls are caused by any number of issues from pushing on the sander to grit particles or other debris trapped under the sanding disc while sanding. I'd also say don't skip grits.  

 

[Bob Marino]

The short answer is that you skipped way too many grits. Saphir 24 grit in the rotary mode is as aggressive as you can get and can grind down cement. It is meant to get down and dirty as quickly as possible and will leave swirl marks that 120 grit Rubin won't easily remove. Also jumping from 120 Rubin to 220 Brilliant presents the same issues. If you want to remedy the situation via the Rotex, you would need to go back and jump in with lower grit Rubins or Brilliant and not skip too many grits. Sorry for the short reply as this is coming in via phone not computer.

Bob

 

[mastercabman]

Just to be clear, your swirls aren't from the aggressive sanding phase but finer swirls from the finer grits? I'd say never try to remove swirl marks by moving up to a finer grit, that only makes them harder to remove them.

Swirls are caused by any number of issues from pushing on the sander to grit particles or other debris trapped under the sanding disc while sanding. I'd also say don't skip grits.  

I did see some swirl with the aggressive phase but it went away pretty quick as i was moving the sander.It was the P120 phase that i noticed the swirls and i could not removed them with the same paper.As far as using finer grit,that all i had in Brilliant.I just wanted to see if it was any better.

OK, but if i have the sander hook up to a vac,would that suck up the dirt/particles? I tried to lift and move the sander and still did it.And change the paper.

 

[mastercabman]

The short answer is that you skipped way too many grits. Saphir 24 grit in the rotary mode is as aggressive as you can get and can grind down cement. It is meant to get down and dirty as quickly as possible and will leave swirl marks that 120 grit Rubin won't easily remove. Also jumping from 120 Rubin to 220 Brilliant presents the same issues. If you want to remedy the situation via the Rotex, you would need to go back and jump in with lower grit Rubins or Brilliant and not skip too many grits. Sorry for the short reply as this is coming in via phone not computer.

Bob

Bob, First,it was saphire 36,not 24(But close enough [laughing])Are you saying that i should of using maybe a 60 or 80 paper before i go to P120?
I think that's what Brice was suggesting.Like i said,I used the 220 because that's all i have above 120.I just tried it in a different spot just to see if the paper was any different.I only did a test.
So if what you are saying is right,i am going to woodcraft in the next couple days and get something between the 36 and 120.
As far as paper goes,Saphire,Rubin,or Brilliant?  It is bare wood now. 
And what about sanding polyurethane?    What paper and what grit?

 

[justinmcf]

hi mastercabman.

bob marino has given you the correct answer.
i will elaborate a little more...
btw, i worked for a flooring company when i first immigrated to australia, we did lots of big commercial jobs and also lots of small jobs such as bedrooms, etc.

you have skipped too many grits.

36 grit ruben is very coarse.

i would have tried one board with 36 grit and then tried one board with 80 grit (both rubin).

if the sanding rate for both grits is similar, i would go ahead and use 80 grit.
its a lot easier to jump to the next grit which for me would be 120 grit.
the next grit before varnishing would be 150 grit (brilliant).
if you want an even smoother finish and can justify the time needed to sand the same area so many times, then jump to 240 grit (brilliant).

as far as i know, sanding with any grit number will produce swirls, its our job to reduce these by working through the grits properly.

yes, a vacuum will help take away dust particles and i would not consider sanding any room inside a house without dust extraction in place.

so the grits you should be buying now are.... P80 rubin. P120 rubin. P150 brilliant. P240 brilliant.
this requires sanding the floor area 4 times before varnishing/finishing.
its up to you to make the decision whether you can spend the time doing this.

regards, justin.

 

[mastercabman]

Thanks to all for a fast reply.Just to clarify,I HAVE NOT SANDED THE WHOLE FLOOR WITH 120 YET! I only did a very small area(about 16x16)I had a used spray can of poly and just wanted to show the wife an idea what the floor is going to look like.So i did not wasted too much time
I am going to get some P80 and then go with P120.That's should be ok?

Justin,since you have worked with wood floor,What about this wood filler that i used and turn out somewhat white?
Made by PARKS and it is a wood filler for floors,full trowel,Looks really good when i put it on but then after sanding it looses it's color?

 

[justinmcf]

i see from your profile that you are in norfolk, presumably the uk.

i cant help with product names in your neck of the woods.
i use products that i buy locally here.

you would be better off talking to a flooring company in your local area for wood filler info.

regards, justin.

 

[mastercabman]

i see from your profile that you are in norfolk, presumably the uk.

i cant help with product names in your neck of the woods.
i use products that i buy locally here.

you would be better off talking to a flooring company in your local area for wood filler info.

regards, justin.

Thank for your help Justin.
BTW, It's Norfolk,Virginia  USA

 

[wintu]

i dont know how big is that room but i think u should rent the floor sander and the edger. it will be much faster job. you should be able to get them for around $80 a day and if you start early u can make it. here is my recommendation for full trowel filer when you ready for it.  http://www.woodwiseproducts.com/woodfiller/woodpatch.html  its good brand.  as for polyurethane i use this  http://www.floormechanics.com/finish_and_sealer_bona_kemi_woodline_polyurethane%29%29147.php  its very good . they also have water base. good luck with your project

 

[clintholeman]

With swirl marks, I would add another step of the P180 between the 150 and 240, if it were me.

 

[Bob Marino]

I think, as mentoned,  the suggestion of a floor and edging sander would be the preferred way to go, but if still determined to use the Rotex, I might think about getting 50 Rubin (again Saphir is way "rougher" than Rubin) as well as 80. Then to either Rubin or Brilliant 150, then go to your 220. But I still think  that you should also get the 180 grit; if not for this project than any of the other projects you will be working on in the future.

Bob

 

[WarnerConstCo.]

do this for fastest results with the least effort.

36G Saphir rotex mode  Even faster to use the ras for the first 2 grits.

40g cristal rotex mode

60 grit cristal rotex mode then RO

80g rubin rotex mode then RO

100g rubin RO  (sometimes rotex first)

Just do one pass with each grit, mode.

Try to sweep as often as possible.

 

[erikfsn]

To help avoid swirl marks turn your vacuum down too. The full vacuum pressure causes swirl marks by pulling the sander too firmly against the sanding surface.

 

[clintholeman]

Renting the floor sander and edger are, by far, the best way to go.

If you need to take the swirls out after that, then use the increasingly finer grits.  If you do it before you use the floor sander, you risk making a depression in your floor [especially with the 36 grit Rubin] that might be difficult to smooth over.

The right tool for the job is the floor sander...

 

[Dan Clermont]

Not to sound like an echo.... but you have skipped too many grits.

It also helps to turn down the suction on the dust extractor so the pad does not get sucked onto the floor. This will help avoid swirl marks.

I have removed a dark espresso finish from a fir floor and the Rotex worked fine. Took longer then a proper floor sander but it was worth it. I wouldn't want to do allot of rooms with a Rotex but a room here or there is okay.

Please post pics when you are done

Dan Clermont

 

[jo041326]

Hi,
also don't push too much on your Rotex. Let it do its job and just control it not to bump around. Tune your vacuum suction power. Don't move with Rotex too fast.
Josef

 

[mastercabman]

Thank again,I'm going to get more paper of different grit. Refinishing hardwood floor is not my expertise.  And yes,if i do plan on redoing the rest of the house,I'm going to rent the machine for that project.Doing it by hand is painful [crying]
I just wanted to see if it was worth it without spending too much money.I still don't know how good or bad the floor is under the carpet on the rest of the house.

 

[Tezzer]

The number one cause of swirls is caused from the operator moving the sander to fast. Its common, as they think you sand quicker. Slow down to a steady 20mm/per second and you will be guaranteed swirl free. I never sand part 120# and always skip grits (the great don?t skip grits myth ) and you cannot see any swirls

 

[Mike Goetzke]

Check this link out too:

Hardwood Floors w/ RotexHardwood Floors w/ Rotex