Table saw / MFT questions

[chappardababbar]

I have read about 10 threads on this subject but I really want to have my own conversation about it. I think I'm the only one that can answer the questions I'm about to ask but it can't hurt to get some thoughts from others who have no doubt been down the same route.

Firstly what do I need? Well I actually haven't done ANY woodworking so far. I'm more of a tool collecting guy up to now but am planning on remodelling a house and just generally learning skills that I can apply to home improvement.

One guy I've been following a lot recently is John Peters Art and Home on youtube. I love his work and he always seems to be working on something that I need to/want to do. Bookcases, column wraps, home office built ins, cabinets, shed building and lots of other cool stuff. I want to start some of these projects and only a few months back I had nothing more than a screwdriver and an 18v makita drill.

Hopefully that gives you a brief idea of the range of things I want to be able to do. One tool a lot of woodworkers (on Youtube) seem to use the most is a table saw. I have the TS55, extra rails and MFT table but there are things that I want to be able to do quickly that I don't think I can do with the set up I have so far.

I'll add that I'm extremely time limited and space limited. I'll be working maybe a couple of hours a week and a few hours at weekends. I have a double garage (in the UK that means 2 american SUVs wide wall to wall) and can utilise one half of this for woodworking but it's shared with a motorbike and other bits

Where I think i need something more than MFT + TS55 is for cutting down large sheets and for doing fine cuts i.e. beading or other trimming.

I would like a table saw with an outfeed table that I can store away when not required....but which set up? I can't afford to buy any of this right now but I'd like to think ahead. Here are my thoughts so far:

1. Cast iron saw with a table at the same height as an MFT? With a side table this would be cool - maybe I add a cms VL to the longer edge of the MFT for more outfeed support? Tables are £1000 for a good one but I haven't seen any photos of this perhaps due to the difference in height?

2. CMS + TS55 insert or I buy a TS75
- I understand the GB CMS (4 legs) does not attach to the MFT so I'll have to get VL CMS(2 legs). Tearing down a sheet with a TS55 then having to attach it to the insert would annoy the hell out of me so I'll probably look to get a TS75 and just leave it in there. All of this gets expensive...back to point 1?

3. CS70 - expensive. If spending this much and not moving it around that much - back to point 1.

4a. Other site saw integrated into table a la Ron Paul. I imagine an L shape table that the MFT fits into to make a larger rectangular table. There would be a table saw integrated into the L shaped bit

4b. I get the MFT and CMS VL, then make a custom rectangular MFT that is as long as MFT+CMS and probably 2/3 as wide as the MFT again. This could attach with the side rails making a larger table overall. It means I won't have to keep taking the CMS VL off when want to use the table for other work.

I looked at other cool ideas like the MFT slab, Ron Paul and all the cool custom ideas people have but I need to be realistic about my current skill level and the amount of time i have available to work on it with various commitments and two small kids.

In the near future I want to build a cabinet for the MFT to sit on. A member on here named Sparktrician did one I was particularly impressed with and because he was kind enough to provide build info, it's something I feel I could take on as a first project...

I'll try to add some sketches of the configurations I mentioned when I can but in the meantime I would love to hear opinions if you can make sense of what I'm trying to achieve...

Yasir

 

[AlexThePalex]

If you're a beginning woodworker, then I don't think it is wise to spend loads of money on expensive Festool stuff right away. Buying a cast iron table saw is also a big step, and if you don't use it that often, it will be in your way ALL the time.

I worked with my own home built table saw for 15 years before I got into Festool and bought the CS70. Could do everything with it, so it's not necessary to lay down the big bucks right away. I got the CS70 finally because I knew making things with wood is something I will always do and I was prepared to take it to the next level. But if you're just starting out, I'd really suggest you take it slow. Unless you're able to spend money like water. 

Why not try something like a green Bosch saw like the PPS 7 S 1400W to start with?

One thing that is great about the Festool CMS and CS saws though, is you can fold them up and store them in a really small space.

 

[thedude306]

If I was doing it again (and since you already have the TS55) I would go with a small high quality jobsite table saw.

I bought the "big" bosch table saw but If I would have got the track saw sooner, I would have gone for the baby bosch.  Easy to pull out and easy to store.  Like this guy:

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Bosch-0601B30460-110-Professional-Table/dp/B007PB0264/ref=sr_1_7?s=diy&ie=UTF8&qid=1421617341&sr=1-7&keywords=bosch+table+saw

I find I still need(like) the table saw for small rips and I now want to do that on the smallest possible saw.  But I wouldn't want to tie up my MT55cc to do it.

 

[hitandruntz]

With such a small space i would suggest a small jobsite Tablesaw also. Mft + ts55 can cover 90 % of what your looking to do but small rips are a challenge. Can totally be done but ive abandoned  doing small rips with my ts55. If  i cant count on a process being extremely accurate  i just abandon  that and find a process that is. A small tablesaw can tuck away and when you need it its there. Also a small fold up flip stand outfeed like the ridgid is a nice solution for supporting  large pieces off the mft and makes a grest outfeed too. I would avoid  rollerstands.

 

[ear3]

I think as a general philosophy it's better to let the work determine the tools than vice versa.  Short of dropping $10-15,000 up front, there's no such thing as the ideal set-up -- rather, it should evolve to suit your needs and skills.  Once you get into some projects you'll be able to determine whether a table saw or insert is the better way to go.

I disagree, though, that Festool is a tool that should be reserved for professionals and experienced woodworkers.  As someone else commented on the forum a while back (I forget who, but it was a wise comment), Festool gives you the best chance of letting the error be solely your fault, which is about all that we can ask for as woodworkers.  I spent years making the best of sub-par tools, and while I eventually learned to overcome their shortcomings, my learning process would have been much quicker had I started with Festool.  Once I started investing in better tools, it took some additional time to get over the bad habits or compensating techniques I had developed to leave enough tolerance for tool error.

 

[Gary in Texas]

Where I think i need something more than MFT + TS55 is for cutting down large sheets and for doing fine cuts i.e. beading or other......

This is exactly where the TS-55 and rails excel....in cutting down sheet goods!!! 

I have a Jet cabinet saw and for years struggled with getting the sheet up, properly balanced with in-feed and out-feeds, making sure the sheet goods stay against not the fence, etc....really the least enjoyable cuts I've made using the cabinet saw. 

Using the TS-55, cutting down sheets is a breeze......

 

[Birdhunter]

Welcome to the world of woodworking.

If you can find a woodworkers guild or club, there are probably people who can share their experience with you. Their experience could save you a lot of time and wasted money. There are a lot of ways to get seriously hurt in woodworking. Having an experienced woodworker coaching you might save you an injury.

My opinion is that if you can afford Festool products you will avoid buying a lessor product and later replacing them with Festool.

My preferred table saw is Sawstop. It is a great saw and has the built in safety feature.

Good luck and let us know what you decide to do.

 

[Gary in Texas]

My preferred table saw is Sawstop. It is a great saw and has the built in safety feature.

I don't imagine the SawStop is legal to sell in the UK.  Question for those in the UK - is the dado blades/longer arbor still banned in the UK/Europe?

Gary

 

[Dan Clark]

...
I disagree, though, that Festool is a tool that should be reserved for professionals and experienced woodworkers.  As someone else commented on the forum a while back (I forget who, but it was a wise comment), Festool gives you the best chance of letting the error be solely your fault, which is about all that we can ask for as woodworkers.  I spent years making the best of sub-par tools, and while I eventually learned to overcome their shortcomings, my learning process would have been much quicker had I started with Festool.  Once I started investing in better tools, it took some additional time to get over the bad habits or compensating techniques I had developed to leave enough tolerance for tool error.

I think that was me...  If you have poor tools and you screw up, what is the cause - you or the tool?  With good tools you can typically find the cause by looking in the mirror.  With good tools, you'll typically get the same result when you screw up again and again.  And that's how you learn - learning from your mistakes. 

With poor tools you won't necessarily get the same result each time you try.  The results change a little from each iteration.  So you're searching for the cause, but you can't pinpoint it because results change every time you try.  Been there; done that. 

Today, I cut a 49" long dado  using an OF1400 and a guide rail.  Since the dado was for a T-Track, it had to be just a smidge below the surface of the ply.  It took a couple of tweaks to the get the depth just right, but the OF1400 is a precision machine.  I messed up the measurement twice.  But the OF1400 allowed me to correct them easily.  It's much more expensive than other routers, but it's worth every penny.

Just my (ever-so-humble) opinion. 

Regards,

Dan.

 

[John Beauchamp]

Festool makes great tools that make some jobs faster and easier but you still have to learn how to use them. One of their strongest features for me is the dust collection, but unless you have it hooked up its no better than anything else so I suggest one of your next purchases should be one of the vacs. I also agree that you should let the jobs or needs dictate which tools to buy. There seems to be plenty of people buying these great tools and not actually using them. I have a full cabinet shop and less than 30 days ago I bought my first Festool a ts55 req and mft/3. Then I got a rotex 90 and domino 500 which i needed to finish my mftc. Breaking down plywood can be difficult even with infeed and outfeed tables. With your space and limited finances I would just use the ts55 and rigid foam on the floor. Then you have nothing big to store and work around. Depending on what you're doing a jigsaw, sander and router might come next.  Have fun build something. 

 

[mark60]

Being new to Festool but jumping in with both feet I'd also recommend a dust extractor next if you don't have one already. I got my TS55 first, during the big recon sale of 2014 and added an MFT top with a 118" rail a couple weeks later. Then Christmas brought a DF500 and a CT Mini. Last weekend I was building a printer stand and all was going well until I wanted to template rout a cutout in the back of the cabinet. I grabbed my Bosch, clamped the template down and went at it. When I finished the cutout I looked like I had been caught in a woodchip blizzard. I spent the next 15 minutes cleaning up the mess I made and went to the computer to look at Festool routers. My OF1010 will be ordered tomorrow and I'll probably have a 1400 before too long. Working without making a mess is a huge deal for me and the accuracy/quality of the tools is kinda nice too. My tablesaw still sees plenty of use and always will but for breaking down sheet goods the TS55 with DE and a sheet of foamboard is where it's at for me.

 

[mike_aa]

+1 on the dust extractor.  That and Festool sanders are what attracted me to Festool in the first place.

Mike A.

 

[Dan Clark]

Being new to Festool but jumping in with both feet I'd also recommend a dust extractor next if you don't have one already. I got my TS55 first, during the big recon sale of 2014 and added an MFT top with a 118" rail a couple weeks later. Then Christmas brought a DF500 and a CT Mini. Last weekend I was building a printer stand and all was going well until I wanted to template rout a cutout in the back of the cabinet. I grabbed my Bosch, clamped the template down and went at it. When I finished the cutout I looked like I had been caught in a woodchip blizzard. I spent the next 15 minutes cleaning up the mess I made and went to the computer to look at Festool routers. My OF1010 will be ordered tomorrow and I'll probably have a 1400 before too long. Working without making a mess is a huge deal for me and the accuracy/quality of the tools is kinda nice too. My tablesaw still sees plenty of use and always will but for breaking down sheet goods the TS55 with DE and a sheet of foamboard is where it's at for me.

+1 on the dust extractor.  I have a CT22 for portable use and a CT26 with a boom arm for shop use.  Festool tools are famous for their dust-free design.  In addition a good DC is very useful for sucking dust from lots of other tools.

Like a Laguna bandsaw:

And a Dewalt contractor saw:

And let's not forget a Dewalt thickness planner:

A router table with Triton router using two hoses - one to the fence and one to the router using the Y and this adapter:

Main 50mm hose goes to the fence dust port:

And the hose with adapter goes to the router dust port:

And of course to modest belt/spindle sander:

Or the Kreg jig using a Fein hose adapter:

How about a hand sander (before Festool came out with theirs):

And of course, it's also a humble vac for picking up all that shop floor smutz:

IMO, CTs are core and should be the FIRST Festool purchased.

Regards,

Dan.

 

[sancho57]

If you done your research here looking at the various threads then you know my story. If not I'll give the readers digest version.
When I relocated from the states to the UK I gave away all my stationary tools I already had a lot of Festools. I did this knowing I'd be getting the CMS modules that are not available in the states. 

I use one side of 2 car UK garage for a shop.

My advice to you is to get the CMS with a saw module and router module. The track saws are great for sheet goods but when it comes to ripping thin strips though it can be done with the track saw is easier with the CMS.
But here are other things to consider and the major one is cost. These tools aren't cheap. If your going to stay with wood working and remodeling and building things yes go for the Festools, CMS and other of their great tools. If not you might want to go cheaper. I don't believe you will have as easy of a time with cheaper tools but they can be done with good results.
A bit of a caution the saw CMS does take some adj that your not going to find on u tube. I had to call Phil for help and talk to John at a woodworking show to get the adj. but now that I know and others here know we can help you with any of the set up and usage questions you may have.

This(FOG) is a very valuable resource for us Festool users with a great and diverse knowledge base.
I hope this helps.

Where in the UK do you live?
I have reorganised my shop since this photo but you can see it is possible to get a lot in a small shop

 

[chappardababbar]

I live about 20 mins away from you!

Wow, thanks for all the replies, great info will definitely let y'all know what I do.

I think festool cms route is the one I will take at some point. I will look out for a used CMS and get all the TS attachments. Makes sense because I can use it as a router table later and it all folds up small.

Should I get the 2 leg or 4 leg version though? I like the idea of adding an extension to the MFT....thoughts?

Those guys that put a saw in the CMS, is it not a pain to put in and take out?

 

[sancho57]

Whether you get the one that attaches to the MFT or not is personal preference . I prefer a seperately free standing table. You can use your MFT as a out feed table as they are the same height.

There are a few forgers out here with in a 20 min- 40 min drive from me.

 

[chappardababbar]

Jobsworth if ever you are around Peterborough at the weekend, do get in touch, I'd love to show you my 'shop' and get some tips from you

I picked up the ct midi as well as a few other bits and pieces

 

[sancho57]

I'd like to see your shop. I'll PM Ya before I go to,Peterborough the next time.

I do go there  about once or twice a month to the Italian neighbourhood. We found nice family owned and ran deli there. Good eatings.

Oh I met the Festool rep for our area a real nice and helpful guy named James. He's a pretty new rep but he's very good I had him out before Xmas to give me a hand.