Talk me in to or out of a Kapex. School Workshop Saw

[lewisc]

My school has 2 workshops. A smaller one for the younger students and bigger one for the senior students. The sliding mitre saw in the smaller workshop died a few days ago after about 12years of use. The saw in the bigger workshop is about 3 years old and should go for a a few more years at least. We will buy a new saw and out the new one in the bigger workshop where the students work on more complicated projects.

I was chatting to the other teacher and he suggested a Kapex. As much as it would be a great saw, I'm trying to justify the extra money (about $800AUD) over a Bosch/Dewalt/Makita etc... keeping in mind that it would be used constantly by high school students.

 

[Bohdan]

Talk to Festool to see if they will come to the party for a better price.

 

[lewisc]

The store I got my CT's, Domino and Sanders from, give me 5% or 10% (can't remember which) so that helps a bit.

 

[Svar]

I don't have particular model suggestion. However, since it is for school my primary considerations would be safety, ergonomics (as related to child/adolescent), simplicity. You want to introduce them to a class of tools and develop generic skill set rather then hook on bells and whistles of a particular model.

 

[Stephen B]

[size=13pt][member=61717]lewisc[/member]

Check out this web page from Festool Aust. regarding their 'Festool for Schools ' program.
http://festool4schools.com.au

You will note that Fest Aus. offers schools a 10% discount on tools and 20% discount on accessories.

There are two Kapex models available in Australia, the KS88 is nearer  the price and feature level (but no laser) of the higher end models of the brands you mentioned.

For details see -http://www.festool.com.au/epages/to...ooltechnic/Products/561398/SubProducts/561398
http://www.festool.com.au/epages/to...ooltechnic/Products/561288/SubProducts/561288

As a FOG member, you may have read the many posts here regarding Kapex issues. These problems appear to be related mainly, but not exclusively, to 110V models in North America and the UK.

Another manufacturer that you might consider is Metabo. Some tools are German manufactured, others come from their own Chinese based facility. See -
http://www.metabo.com.au/Product-catalogue-Metabo-Building-trade-half-stationary.35051+M5f921654723.0.html

 

[nickao]

Totally 100% unacceptable for a school(especially a public school) unless the funds were a gift or specifically line itemized for that specific saw.

As a parent to 7 students(some that took shop class)  that makes his living off woodworking I would literally scream bloody murder and  bring it up at a board meeting as a waste of allocation of funds if I saw our money spent that way. I don't know how it is where you are, where I live we pay the second highest property tax in the country because our property taxes support our schools. We watch what the schools are spending like a hawk and rightfully so. I actually feel bad for people with no kids, they are getting screwed over paying these taxes and having no kids in the system. The equipment purchases need to be made carefully because of this.

First off there is a KNOWN motor issue, that point alone eliminates the Kapex. Due diligence means reading the reviews and complaints.

I have sent 3 Kapex back over the years for things that had nothing to do with the motor. In the last 12 years I still have a DeWalt(3 of them bought at various times) A Bosch and a Milwaukee, NONE of those have failed me all the while Festool failing along the way. I had a Rigid and DeWalt that lasted over 10 years before that.

Even if there wasn't a motor or any other  issue there is simply zero benefit to a kapex for that type of teaching. I would argue a more widely used saw in your area would be more beneficial, one the student might actually come across. Around here the one DeWalt or another is  at about 90% of job sites. Use the extra funds you will have getting something other than a Kapex for another tool or material for projects.

 

[Holmz]

Does Metabo have a school program?

 

[SS Teach]

You want to turn kids loose on a $1,500 saw, when pros have problems. You need a saw that can take a lot of punishment and last a long time. The Kapex is a marvelous piece of equipment no question. But 20 pages of problems for the Kapex in the Festool Problems section is a warning sign. What do the majority of the pros in the area use and why? Make a few phone calls, find out before spending the bucks.

 

[brouder]

Whoa!

Some strong opinions there... I agree that the Kapex is too expensive for a school class (you don't learn to drive in an Aston Martin!), but in terms of reliability, I bought mine in (I think) early 2007 when I lived in Germany. I foolishly lent it out to friends, who left it out in the rain (in a UK winter), I have mishandled it in every possible way, and almost ten years later, it works so beautifully without complaint. Just today, I used the crown moulding stop and the positioning catch at the back to make some compound mitre cuts on home-made MDF skirting boards. I was able to shave hundredths of a millimetre at a time cleanly to get a perfect fit. I made a tiny adjustment to the lasers recently, and made a plywood zero-clearance insert last week when the plastic insert started to look like a slalom after 9.5 years, but seriously, mine has been flawless. And it's permanently outdoors (under a shabby plastic corrugated roof). I can't imagine ever needing to replace it - the motor sounds the same as it did in 2007. However, I should probably replace the blades more often, and use the 'proper' blades for the appropriate cuts.

But for a school...? I wouldn't think so! I'd go with DeWalt or Makita - beautiful machines with sensible prices...

 

[Coen]

My school has 2 workshops. A smaller one for the younger students and bigger one for the senior students. The sliding mitre saw in the smaller workshop died a few days ago after about 12years of use. The saw in the bigger workshop is about 3 years old and should go for a a few more years at least. We will buy a new saw and out the new one in the bigger workshop where the students work on more complicated projects.

I was chatting to the other teacher and he suggested a Kapex. As much as it would be a great saw, I'm trying to justify the extra money (about $800AUD) over a Bosch/Dewalt/Makita etc... keeping in mind that it would be used constantly by high school students.

My 'highschool' had a belt saw; unsafe as ***. Some girls did lose a bunch of hair in that thing...

But a Festool; I don't know what type of students you have, but the amount of indecent handling of 3rd party property by fellow students when I was that age...

 

[antss]

Hey dovetail, perhaps you should question why your schools don't have top of the line equipment if you live in the top tax neighborhood !  Just what are they spending the $ on ???  That's the larger question. 

I live in the one of the highest RE taxed areas in my state and the schools in this neighborhood are either new, or are being extensively overhauled with stone, stucco, and designs from established architects.  The playgrounds and rec fields/gyms are state of the art. They complement the neighborhoods rather than looking like boring institutional boxes.  Additionally, they are stocked with ipads and classrooms each have multimedia digital projection boards. No chalk erasers to dust out here.

Point is, I wouldn't be angry if my school had a state of the art tool for shop class , or think it a waste of $$$.  Everyone isn't going to use it, and maybe the $$$, prestige ,whatever of a fancy tool will inspire pride, respect and craftsmanship for a future generation.  It might even inspire interest, which is half the battle or more nowadays.

Additionally - only the 110v Kapex exhibits the "known" motor issue.  Lewis is in Australia and would buy a 230v model eliminating that concern for him.

Look, I'm one of the most vocal detractors of Kapex in the U.S., but I don't get carried away with bashing it or trumpeting Festools as the holy grail like some fans.  In this case I think the dust collection itself may be worth it.  Your kid's health is priceless, and no one likes cleaning up - especially teens in shop class.  Leaves a few more minutes for projects.

 

[peter halle]

I am a fan of Festool but I do try to give honest advice.  Here goes:

The students need to learn concepts, operation, safety, and also personal protection.  Odds are that when they hopefully get thru the program they will not be able to afford the same tools that they used in school.  In other words - train them on what they will likely use early in their career.

From the dust collection aspect - many different ways to try and minimize the exposure to the students.

Buy what is commonly used in the industry in your area.

Peter

 

[lewisc]

Thanks for your ideas.

I'm working in a Private school. My area is allocated a budget for consumables - glue/timber/sanding paper etc for the various projects. As well as a consumables budget, we are given a bit of wiggle room to buy equipment when situations like this come up.  The saw that died was a Dewalt. I've bought a Bosch glide saw at my last school and really enjoyed it. It's likely that we will get one of those. We were just entertaining some different options.

I've bought  2 CT36's,  2 ETS 150/5's and a Domino 500. We've used them with great success over the last 6 months. That's my aim. To give my students success at what they do and my Festool equipment has helped do that.

As far as dust collection goes, with my current saw, I built a hood around the saw and put in a couple of big gulp chutes thats attached to our main extractor. It does a great job of collecting dust so a similar thing would be made for the new saw.

Point is, I wouldn't be angry if my school had a state of the art tool for shop class , or think it a waste of $$$.  Everyone isn't going to use it, and maybe the $$$, prestige ,whatever of a fancy tool will inspire pride, respect and craftsmanship for a future generation.  It might even inspire interest, which is half the battle or more nowadays.

Most of my students haven't touched a saw/chisel/hammer by the time they get to grade 7/8. What you've just mentioned is a lot of what I'm trying to do.

 

[Jesse Cloud]

What is the goal of the class?  If you are trying to give the kids skills they can take to the workplace, then Peter nailed it - buy what the local trades use.  If its expected that the kids will go on to other fields, and you are just building hobbyists, then maybe some really cool tools might be appropriate.

Also, keep in mind what kind of projects they will be doing.  You might want a saw that cuts wider pieces than the Kapex does.

 

[antss]

It seems it's not a trade school.

I also think there's a golden opportunity for a powertool co. to get in on the ground floor of positive impressions for future customers by donating or at least very favorable pricing for academic equipment. Regardless of what the local trades favor.  I mean, suppose your locality is one of the top ten consumers of Harbor Freight gear ???  That's what you want the first timers to have ?

Think about how Delta and Powermatic used to dot every high school shop across the country, and certainly influenced generations of future buyers because of it.  Now, one is gone and the other is close to struggling, but that's in large part to the dissolution of shop class and a stigmatization of the trades starting around the 70's; as well as poor management decisions.

 

[Coen]

Aah, I guess that's why I associate Makita with empty batteries...  [tongue]

 

[DzordanoBruno]

Buy a Dewalt DWS 780 or the new brushless model

Odesláno z mého SM-N9005 pomocí Tapatalk

 

[Jeremiah9675]

My KAPEX motor fried on me after 6 cuts. Right out of the box. Took it back for a refund. Bought a 12" sliding Milwaukee miter saw and it's been running for 6 years now. It's a beast. Not saying to buy the Milwaukee but stay away from the KAPEX.

 

[Carpe Diem]

As a woodshop teacher I will share my opinion. That said, I am not looking to argue or persuade others, just offering my opinion as a woodshop teacher. Last year another woodshop teacher in my school board asked me why I replaced my mitre saws with a Festool mitre saws. Below is a portion of my response to that other teacher from a year ago:

"When I needed to replace the mitre saws I choose the Festool Kapex KS 120 because in my opinion it offers exceptional safety features that are superior to any other mitre saw currently available. Below is a summary of the advantages of the Kapex.

1. The arbor flanges have a friction lining which act like a slip clutch in a binding condition (page 9 in the manual).

2. Adjustable low-powered solid-state laser system (wavelength 640 t0 660 nm) acts as a visual safety reminder of the cutting path and aids in accuracy (page 11 in the manual).

3. The power trigger and plunge release (trigger lock) helps prevent accidental starting of the saw when lining up a cut (page 11 in the manual).

4. The hold down clamps are student friendly and so easy to use that students actually use them in situations when not required (see page 12 in the manual).

5. Superior dust collection system combined with the HEPA Dust Extractor (see page 10 in the manual). It is worth noting that the mitre saw drops for the central dust collection system that were once connected to the Dewalt mitre saw were woefully inadequate.

In addition the saws themselves have been flawless. They cost more then double of most others not including the HEPA dust extractor. That said they are not twice the mitre saw in terms of power. But the dust collection is superior and the hold down clamps (offset cam, quick and easy to use) are fantastic."

 

[Carpe Diem]

I should have clarified that I teach high school woodworking and focus on cabinets, furniture and carpentry with my students. Safety is my highest priority, from air quality to injury prevention. In my opinion, the Kapex mitre saw although pricey was the best mitre saw for our needs.

I try to limit risks wherever I can in our shop. I am not aware of another mitre that has a power trigger and plunge release (trigger lock), preventing accidental starting of the saw when lining up a cut. With our old mitre saw(s) to lower the saw to line up a cut your finger is essentially on the power trigger to plunge the saw to line up the cut. With the Kapex you have a plunge release and must additionally depress the power trigger. Essentially creating a fail safe.