Thinking about buying / a question before I do

[crwilburn]

Hello everyone,

First post here? I'm ready to upgrade my shop for the purposes of building my own cabinets and at this moment I have mixed feelings about Festool.  So, before I pull out my wallet I thought I would post to see how many, if any, have had similar thoughts prior to their first purchase.

My lingering question about Festool is that they seem like a closed source tool company; closed source in the sense that Festool only plays nice with Festool.  As I go through the catalog and pick out the tools I?m interested in, 55 plunge saw, mft3, domino, 22 vacuum, and the barrel gripped jigsaw, I feel like the price of entry is the first small step into a world of endless tens and twenties for those little pieces you need if you want to do ?that?.

I don?t mind paying for quality; I know the price of getting something made by someone who pays attention to the details.  I do mind, I should say I think I will mind paying for quality and then paying for it again and again.

I?ve scanned through the first 10 pages of this forum section and I haven?t come across anyone complaining about this aspect of Festool so maybe I?m just cheap and skeptical.  Please chime in and let me know if you ever feel nickel-ed and dimed or if you?ve bought in and have never looked back.

-craig

 

[lapiz]

Hi Craig

From the tools you have mentioned - other manufacturers make jigsaw blades  saw blades  abrasives etc to fit Festool and there are many third party clamps for the MFT. Also, many other manufacturer power tools will work fine with the Festool vac system. I'm in the UK where everything Festool is very expensive so I buy the tools but buy the accessories according to the deal on offer.

lapiz

 

[kdzito]

Craig,

I just started buying Festool products over the past month and I feel they are well worth the investment.  My complaint is that the accessories really add up fast.  I started another post titled "Finally Buying the MFT/3" and say my thoughts there. 

In the end, you really get what you pay for and even though the Festool products are a system, they really save on working space and time.  I do all of my work in the garage and do not store any tools there due to the fear of it being broken into.  This is one of the many aspects of why I like Festool is that I can take and stack multiple systainers together or on top of the dust extractor, keep assemblage of tool organization during the work flow, have them close by, and only make one trip between the garage and basement (of where I store the tools).  Before, it was endless trips between the two and this wasted way too much time as with the cliche "time is money".  The most important aspect of Festool products is that they offer well thought out efficiencies in tool handling for set ups, blade/bit changes, more useful accessories, and other functions of these processes that make a huge difference when compared to other tool manufacturers.  I'm not trying to be a hypocrite about the accessories from my other post as they have an absolute and essential use for their respective tool.  Before using Festool products I bought many other edge guides from other tool manufacturers and have been very disgusted with the results.  When I bought the TS55 it made me realize that I don't need a belt sander on straightening and leveling door/panel edges and I can really do without table and circular saws.  I know that I may catch flack about doing without table saws; however, my work doesn't justify its use.

German engineering is really technical continuity, efficient, and simple as in "why didn't I think of that".

Take care and good luck.  From seeing what you want to start out with is an excellent choice and I highly recommend their sanders.  I have the RS 2 E, DTS 400 EQ, and ETS 150/3 EQ.  BTW, I also work for a Millwork and Finish Carpentry Installation contractor and really see how the Festool products benefit this trade.

Kurt

 

[Holzhacker]

Go for it you cheapskate . Seriously though, the cost can be somewhat staggering. The accessory costs bug me a bit but then I don't buy acc components. I tend to 'make' the tool do what I want it to. As mentioned, blades, etc can be bought from others.
MFT3 - are you crazy?. That kind of money for a stupid work table. It took me a long time to justify it. BUY IT. I wouldn't want to be without mine. I work so much better and safer with it.
Trion - if you use a jigsaw for fine work, but it. Beats King Bosch any day. Use a jigsaw for brutal work? Buy the Bosch.
Sanders - when you get tired of eating dust, they are real cheap suddenly
I use a Fein Turbo II vac, would like to get a CT-22 a some point, need more work$
TS and rails - makes cuts so much better, wish it didn't sound so odd. You'll see if you buy one.
Hope that helps, good luck keeping your footing on the black and green slippery slope.

 

[clev1066]

Craig, welcome and enjoy the hunt.

I have been a user of Festool for a little while now and really enjoy the quality, convenience, and performance of the tools. That being said; my shop has not turned into a complete Festool showroom. As much as I like the Festool system, there are other tool manufacturers that I enjoy as much.

Case-in-point: I really like my Bosch tools and have no reason to replace any of them. The jigsaw is a perfect example. I have tried the Festool barrel-grip. It was a fine tool, but I still prefer my Bosch. I think my 1950 is just as good as the Festool, maybe even better. Another example are my Bosch 1617evs router kits. I have several routers ( 2 Bosch kits, Porter-Cable 690 for my dovetail jig, a Festool OF 1000, and a Hitachi ms12vc kit). As much as I like Festool products, my Bosch 1617evs kits aren't going anywhere. The Bosch are still my favorite routers, and the Festool OF series hasn't changed that.

OTOH, I haven't found a product by any manufacturer to compete with the TS-55, the ETS 150, or the MFT/3. Fein makes a very nice dust extractor, but they are priced very close to the Festool CTs.

Good luck and happy hunting. Remember, you are the one who will be using the tool; so get what you are comfortable with.

 

[Ted Miller]

Craig, I have been a framer/builder since the 70's and have used just about every WWing tool around. I remember when the first power mitre box came out in '79 and I thought I was in heaven. I was now able to trim homes much faster and more precise.

I guess it all comes down to what you are going to do with your tools.

I still own all my large tools like a TS, Planers, Jointers, BS as well as many Festools. I have to admit, you show up at a clients home to do work and you make almost zero dust, that alone gets you more jobs.

When it comes down to price, that does matter for sure. But I look at my 12" TS, its a europeon saw and cost close to 4K and I have at least 2K in just saw blades for it. But it does a lot of work day in day out for me so worth every single penny.

I can't say that any single Festool I own has replaced any of my other tools in my shop or truck, but Festool has added to my arsenal to get the job done with the right tool for me...

 

[Chris Hughes]

I am an American carpenter.  I know that is a wierd statement but it has meaning.  First, the center of my shop has a table saw taking up lots of room.  Repeatable dadoes are easier on the ts.  Who the hell needs a saw to replace that?

Yeah, that was about three years ago.  While I have all my non-festool equipment and use them regularly, it is because I'm waiting for Festool to build a replacement or to be able to afford it.

I own the ts75, a large assortment of rails, an of2200 and assesory kit, an of1010 and line boring kit, a domino, a rotex 125, and a ct22.  I never buy anything that does not have multiple uses and everything I've bought so far covers more than one of my traditional uses of non Festool component.

 

[crwilburn]

thank yor for the replies everyone.  your opinions and insights have been very helpful.  the simple note that the jigsaw can accept blades from other manufacturers was a good sign.  i thought, from the looks of the notch on the top of the jigsaw blade, that festool may have had a proprietary design and would only work with festool jigsaw blades.  and then i jumped to, if that's teh case then i'll bet everything about festool is a proprietary design and must be used with festool accessories.

one good thing is... as i've been doing a cost estimate of making my own cabinets the savings are incredible and will allow me to upgrade my shop (it's really a garage but i booted the cars about a year ago).

i'm going to start with the 55 and the mft3 probabaly this weekend.  i'm going to cut a bunch of sides for basement storage practice cabinets and then do the prep work of rabetts (never know how to spell that word) and dadoes.

thanks again for your thoughts everyone,

-craig

 

[Chris Hughes]

As to proprietary issues, the circural saw blades arbor size is common in Europe, which means we can get them here.  I have a couple of non-festool blades.  Sand paper for the 150 6" is made in micron by 3M for solid surface,(hole pattern)  Hilti has rails compatable with Festool.

 

[Dave Ronyak]

Abrasive Disks: Both Klingspor and Woodworker's Supply offer abrasive disks with Festool hole patterns, although I have not seen any practical reason to not use Festool's abrasives since they are competitively priced, very durable and some vendors will break large packs and sell you smaller quantities.

Circular Saw Blades: Tenyru offers saw blades for TS saws.  For at least the TS 55 they offer a rip blade whose kerf width matches that of Festool's Universal Saw Blade (Item #490516) and Fine Tooth Saw Blade (Item #491952) so you won't have to remove/adjust/replace the Splinterguard on the Guide Rails as you will if you use Festool's Panther Saw Blade (Item #495372) which has a wider kerf width.  I am very satisfied with my Tenyru rip blade but am still using the original Festool Universal Saw Blade (Item #490516) and Fine Tooth Saw Blade (Item #491952) that I purchased over three years ago without any need to sharpen them yet.  (I do frequently clean them, and do not work with melamine or particle board.)

Jigsaw Blades: I confirm what others have stated: the jigsaw blade mount is common with Bosch and Makita among others, so a very wide variety of blades and manufacturers are available.

Dave R.

 

[justinmcf]

hi craig and welcome. you have certainly asked a very interesting question, and even though it may not be talked about, i am sure it something everybody thinks about. i know i thought about festools consumables cost compared to its competitors cost.
for example, i have been using festool sanders for nearly 10 years, i tried cheaper sanding discs and found they were inferior quality compared to festool and it worked out cheaper to buy the festool discs.
the festool saw blades are high quality. i used 1 blade for 10 years, getting it sharpened regularly. i think that as a consumable, the blades are quite reasonably priced because they have a long life.
i have never used festool jigsaw blades, i mainly use bosch, but this is more a matter of supply being available in my area, rather than buying a cheaper brand.
the planer blade is unique, so i guess you have to buy festool.
the belt sander will take other brand belts and they work perfectly.
it took me 10 years to finally realise festool vacs are fantastic. i held off buying a festool vac because of the high price of the consumables. now that i have bitten the festool bullet and bought a ct-22 and ct-33, i have never looked back. and the cost of the consumables, whether that is the disposable bags or filters is now paid by the client.
i would not hesitate to recommend festool for your workshop.
i have found the initial outlay of money to be a painful experience, but this is soon replaced with the joy of using high quality precision tools which allow me to work more efficiently.
regards, justin.

 

[crwilburn]

Thank you Justin for your thoughful reply and your points, and others too, are well taken.  I see Festool wins poeple over with form, function and quality and more than offsets the cost of entry as well as the cost of continuance.  I was hoping to get out to woodcraft this weekend to take the plunge but a high maintenance weekend with my kids, read they needed a lot of attention this weekend, kept me from getting out and spending money on something other than diapers (nappies) and a college fund.

As far as tools go, I'm looking for space managment and efficiency and I feel Festool does this well from their website and this forum.  I have a contracters TS and I was weighing the options of upgrading to a cabinet makers saw or going the festool route with the 55, the mft, rails, and so on.  Festool is winning the race for my dollars.

Thanks again for the replies... now i'm off to the amusement park (king's island) for some family fun.  The tools will have to wait one more day.

-craig

 

[clev1066]

.......

As far as tools go, I'm looking for space managment and efficiency and I feel Festool does this well from their website and this forum.  I have a contracters TS and I was weighing the options of upgrading to a cabinet makers saw or going the festool route with the 55, the mft, rails, and so on.  Festool is winning the race for my dollars.

......

-craig

Disclaimer: I work mostly with hardwood; maple, walnut, cherry in the rough. Therefore, the most vital tools in my shop are the traditional: table saw, jointer, planer, bandsaw.

Wait now! I didn't mean to make the wrong impression. I love my Festools. They have taken some either difficult tasks (cutting sheet goods), inconvenient tasks (cleaning, sweeping, vacuuming), or things I really hated (sanding), and made them more enjoyable with better results.

But you won't hear me talking about giving up my Powermatic 66. I had great results for many years with a Delta model 10; but it was a great move in terms of footprint, dust collection, and quality to move to the cabinet saw. Since I cut sheet goods with a TS-55; I moved down to 30" rails. I bet I could get by with about 16" rails though. Combine this with a good mobile base, blade guarde dust collection, and a removeable or flip up outfeed table; and you've got a lot of saw in a small footprint. Add a router table and cabinet to the right extension; and you're that much better on space.

 

[tvgordon]

Kings Island - I haven't been there in years.  

I had the same thoughts before I bought my first Festool.  In fact, I bought the ES125 because it was (and still is) the least expensive tool they sell.  I did buy it with the CT22 because I wanted dust free sanding.  That's been several years ago and I have a few more Festools now.  I can only afford a tool or two a year, but I will continue to add to my collection because the tools quality and features and that they all work together.  But if I was just starting out and money was tight, I would buy some of the other brands so I would have the tools needed to get the job done (then sell them and replace them with Festool as I got the money).  

None of the other brands work together like Festool though, the guide rail that comes with the saw can be used with a router or jigsaw and the table can be used to hold a piece of wood for routing, sanding, cutting or planing.  I would suggest buying a vacuum also.  It captures nearly all the dust which not only makes clean up easier but your lungs will thank you.

Tom.

 

[crwilburn]

Here are my plans...

first will be a go through with practice cabinets using I'm not sure what for the carcass and poplar for the face frames.  I will be getting the poplar surfaced on 3 sides since i have decided not to purchase the planer and the jointer.  then i'm onto the real cabinets with cherry ply and cherry frames.  again i'm planning on buying my hardwoods surfaced 3 sides.  i have a freud router / table for the finish work so i'm looking for something to use for the knock-down work and the prep for the sides, rabets and dadoes.

my first thought was a bigger table saw using a circ saw and a homemade 0 clearance edge guide to knock down the sheets.  then the thought of storage for the festools compared with mobility with the traditional route came into play.  i can collapse the mft and put the 55 away where i would only be able to move the big stuff around.

i've been a tinker-er for a while now and i want to take the next step into WW as my real hobby.  thanks for giving me more to consider.

-craig

 

[clev1066]

That makes it an easy choice. You want a Track Saw. Many prefer the TS-55 when the primary purpose will be sheet goods and

 

[Dave Ronyak]

Sheet goods = need for track saw (TS 55 or TS 75).  I had both a ShopSmith and later a 10" cabinet saw before I discovered the advantages of using a track saw to reduce sheet goods.  The track saw is especially advantageous to a person who has to work alone and whose shop is short on space.  Not to mention the safety advantages over a traditional table saw.  The table saw is still handy for repeat cuts of relatively small pieces.

Dave R.

 

[crwilburn]

i've been away for a bit and thinking a lot about my choices.  i actually asked about my lumber yard knocking down my sheet goods and they told me they work for $75 an hour.  that might not be too bad but i just wasn't left with the feeling that they would use a lot of tlc with my stuff.

i decided on the ts55 with the mft3 and maybe a vacuum.  the comment about really only needing about 18" of clearance on my table saw was a good insight and i think i can put my contractor's saw to work for my dado and rabet cuts.  oh and i'll probably pick up the parallel guides to make square repeatable cuts for my sides.'

i have to travel again next week and i'll be ready to make the purchase when i return.  then i'll get started on my practice cabinets.

thanks for all the comments.

-craig

 

[cfield60]

The TS55 would be a good tool choice for anyone building cabinets, however it will not take the place of a GOOD cabinet saw. The accuracy of a quality cabinet saw fence for precise width rips is unequalled especially when they must be repeated. As for the mft, I have gotten little use from it. It is to unstable as it is to be considered a work bench imho.
I replaced the legs with an extruded aluminum frame which increased the stability very much.

 

[Brice Burrell]

.........As for the mft, I have gotten little use from it. It is to unstable as it is to be considered a work bench imho.
I replaced the legs with an extruded aluminum frame which increased the stability very much.

We often hear about the MFT tables being unstable or to wobbly for some uses. To better understand the issue let's take a look at what the MFT was designed for, intended use is to be a portable work table for hand held power tools. The MFT is perfectly suited for this purpose. By it's nature as a portable table its not a heavily built tool. It wasn't designed to take the place of a heavy traditional work table made for hand tools. The stress of using hand held power tools on a work table are minimal compared to that of a task like hand planning where a traditional work bench might be preferred. Festool offers braces for the MFT/3 to provide some extra rigidity for light hand tool use. Make no mistake the MFT cannot replace a heavy traditional work bench for heavy hand tool tasks like planning, sawing or other jobs exerting a lot lateral forces on a table/bench.

The MFT tables excel at holding work pieces for cutting, routing and sanding with power tools. They can do so much more, check out Jerry Work's site to read his Getting the most out of the MFT manual.