Tilt locker

Charimon said:
mastercabman said:
Maybe, but Festool never ask us to come up with those ideas!!!!
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Well in this case they forced me to!  Their product has a problem with tipping when it is on the 45.   And I was the one who suffered from it (when it fell) I needed this not to happen again and Festool didn't provide a solution so i did my self.   They do provide that if your saw tips in the first 30 days you can return it.  I didn't make the solution for Festool I did it because Festool didn't make one for me. 
After My idea was passed on by Rick Bush.  I  made a simple vid took some pic's and keep it in my box and use it whenever I cut bevels.  I posted it here http://festoolownersgroup.com/festool-jigs-tool-enhancements/ts-55-angle-stop/msg70708/#msg70708  because I did want to share the idea with other users.

Craig
Click to expand...
But, did you get compensated? [laughing]

 
Here is the gist of the blog posting I was referring to:

http://www.creativelatitude.com/articles/articles_fisher_dcontest.html

I agree that the sharing is what makes this community worthwhile.  That is the payoff that many are seeking when they come here.  We provide ideas and are paid in different currencies.  Some favor the currencies of praise and satisfaction from sharing.  Nothing wrong with that.  Others want to be paid in monetary currency for solving a problem.  Nothing wrong with that, either.

And yes, Festool does not require us to provide them with recommendations.  However, they do have a section where you can provide feedback.  Have you seen Festool produce a product directly from a suggestion?  No, at least not yet.  I'm not sure how old this forum is, but the product development lifecycle may be a little longer than our memories.  And the idea may not be implemented in the same way that it was presented.

I do appreciate that a company listens to our feedback.  Any companies must listen to customer feedback if they want to remain in business.  I'm sure Bosch and others are collecting customer feedback so that they can remain in business.  The fact that Festool is doing it is just a cost of business these days.  It is no longer competitive advantage.  It is required.  So please don't act like Festool is doing us some big favor by providing a forum and gathering our feedback.  This forum serves a couple of purposes.  First, it provides Festool with a very cost effective means to gather end user data.  Second, it helps to build a community and sell products.  Festool isn't providing this forum just because they are nice guys.  There is a business reason for it.



As an American, I value my time and won't work for free.  I don't expect others to work for free.  My point is that if you provide an elegant solution to a problem, and the company recognizes that, then they should at least comp you something other than a t-shirt or a tape measure.  I'm happy to say that Qwas recognized this, and comp'ed someone a rail square for coming up with the idea.

And yes, I think a mother should charge for her breast milk if she is giving it to someone else's child.  That's just what one enterprising chef in New York is doing. 

http://www.nypost.com/p/news/local/manhattan/nurse_made_JQlMRBr5ZgO6iD07AX83MJ

 
John,

Participation thru the posting of thoughts and comments is optional here.  The entire world is welcome to reap the benefits of those posts.  If you feel that it is unfair for the world to benefit from your posts - don't post.

I personally get satisfaction from being a part of a community composed of people who are willing to help each other.  I would venture a guess that the majority of others here feel similar.

Peter  

 
I would like to remind all of our members that personal attacks are greatly frowned upon here.  There is a vast array of cultures, personalities, opinions, etc. that are represented here.  Please do not speak poorly of other members.  If you don't have something nice to say, don't say anything.
 
John,  Man, you really don't like what Festool is charging for their stuff?

You remind me of some people that want a Mercedes Benz but want to pay for Corrola!
 
mastercabman said:
John,   Man, you really don't like what Festool is charging for their stuff?

You remind me of some people that want a Mercedes Benz but want to pay for Corrola!
Click to expand...

I don't like the pricing either.  I understand their thoughts behind it but I disagree with it.  I think competition should be on all levels, not just service.  I think some tools are worth the premium pricing but others like the routers, jig saw, mft, boom arm, etc are way over priced for what they are/do in comparison to something else and I do not own them.  I believe festool is going to have very significant problems if they continue to increase prices at the rates they have over the last few years.

 
Trying to get this thread back on-topic...  Here are two potential Festool solutions to the issue of the saw being prone to tipping when set at a 45.

The parallel guide.

The parallel guide (492 243) for the TS saws actually serves multiple purposes. First, it can be used to aid in making narrow rip cuts which was the accessory's primary design goal.  However, when the device is mounted to the saw upside down, the bottom side of the aluminum fence is flush with the base plate of the saw. In this mode it serves as an outrigger to keep the saws from tipping over when they are set for 45 degree bevel cutting.

So this new parallel guide is actually also a "table extension", which allows more stability when the saws are set over at extreme angles. It is two accessories in one.

The limit stop.

Another solution is to use the guide rail limit stop (491 582) which has a small "lip" that traps the saw's base preventing it from tipping over.  While this prevents tipping at the beginning and/or end of the cut, placing your left hand on the base of the saw furthest from the blade with slight downward pressure will aid during the actual cut itself.

I have also seen other solutions offered by members of the forum over the years that have their own merits.
 
If you notice my earlier post was edited due to a "personal attack".  What was being called a "personal attack" was pointing out that differences in culture between the U.S. and the Netherlands may contribute to Alex and I's differences in cultural attitudes.
I find it ironic that I get called out for a "personal attack" yet I get "attacked" by inference for being cheap or greedy, yet these "attacks" are not edited.

I think Hoover understands the point I am getting at.  Please don't all gang up on him and send him warnings and pile on him for understanding and agreeing with my position.  We all provide suggestions here.  We do it for various reasons, all of which are some sort of "currency" for us.  This can be intrinsic currency like praise, a sense of community, etc.  Others like extrinsic currency (money, items, etc.).  Nothing wrong with either.

The issue I started to point out was that we pay a substantial premium for these tools.  That is due to Festool being proud of what they produce, and they want more than intrinsic currency for what they produce.  But if we create an idea that has value and then want some sort of extrinsic currency for it, we are told "No".  If a dealer fouls up, others tell us "tough, that's the chance you take".  Everyone gets paid but YOU.  It seems incompatible.  If this is really a community, then we need some quid pro quo.

I think the idea for preventing the tipping is a good and important idea.  When I was looking at the TS saws, I was amazed that they would start to tip over if put to 45 deg.  The Dewalt didn't do that.  Festool is being positioned as "Faster, Smarter, and Easier", and we hear all the praises of German engineering, but to have such a well thought out tool tip seems odd.  I passed on the TS 75 because of it, and almost passed on the TS55, too.  So  I think Charimon's idea is an important one for Festool to pay attention to.  It solves a problem.  Although it is being offered with no requirement of compensation, there is an implied request.  Charimon took a great deal of time to create this, create a video to demonstrate it, and share it.  Some simple comp like a Rotex would be extremely cheap in exchange for the idea and the rights to it.  But that's just my opinion, and I know that it conflicts with the "let's just all pay and take it" attitudes that seem to prevail here.

 
... meanwhile, back to Craig's Tilt Locker.  How 'bout some more detailed details?  I think it is GREAT!  And I would like to make one just like it.

 
First off "Design Firms" make Festool NOT Festool, they only have an idea of what market they want into than "sub" it out, test and produce the stuff, don't be fooled. All their tool's form the 90' and up are done by others than them selves.
Just move the red dot and scroll down to see.
http://www.studiowerk-design.de/

But still I love their tools. Cuz they are supperior.
 
Or you could just use your common sense and not leave the saw unattended on the rail when tilted  [wink] Just a thought I never leave mine on the rail if its tilted as far as I can see there is no reason for doing this  ???
 
joiner1970 said:
Or you could just use your common sense and not leave the saw unattended on the rail when tilted  [wink] Just a thought I never leave mine on the rail if its tilted as far as I can see there is no reason for doing this  ???
Click to expand...

Well said.

I don't think it's an issue - it's perfectly obvious that, when tilted, the saw is going to fall off the rail if you let go of it. So don't let go of it. Simple.
 
Shane Holland said:
Here are two potential Festool solutions to the issue of the saw being prone to tipping when set at a 45.

The parallel guide.

The parallel guide (492 243) for the TS saws actually serves multiple purposes. First, it can be used to aid in making narrow rip cuts which was the accessory's primary design goal.  However, when the device is mounted to the saw upside down, the bottom side of the aluminum fence is flush with the base plate of the saw. In this mode it serves as an outrigger to keep the saws from tipping over when they are set for 45 degree bevel cutting.

So this new parallel guide is actually also a "table extension", which allows more stability when the saws are set over at extreme angles. It is two accessories in one.

The limit stop.

Another solution is to use the guide rail limit stop (491 582) which has a small "lip" that traps the saw's base preventing it from tipping over.  While this prevents tipping at the beginning and/or end of the cut, placing your left hand on the base of the saw furthest from the blade with slight downward pressure will aid during the actual cut itself.
Click to expand...

I always wondered why the parallel guide was designed the way it was.  Makes me think that just talking all my tools out of the systainers and putting them on a table with various accessories might reveal other system wide uses.  Thanks for these tidbits.

Peter
 
Nice video Craig. You really got me at the end there when you yanked out the stop. 'bout had to go change my shorts...
 
JohnDistai said:
Thank you for providing these ideas.  I like your suggestion about getting at least a Rotex, if not a Kapex for your solution.  I think the tipping of the saw is a problem, and Festool should correct it.  Your solution seems like a cost-effective, professional solution.  Now for a rant where I contradict my first sentence:

I don't know; I have been using the saw for close to 8 years, and just never left it on the rail at 45; because I  know that it isn't meant to "rest/be left" at 45. I simply returned it to 90. This is not however, to take away one word of thanks to Craig, for his simple but effective solution to tipping. Yes, again thanks Craig for sharing.

The one thing I absolutely hate about this forum - We present ideas and solutions, but we do not receive compensation for them.

It's a forum, we share ideas freely, willingly and in  many cases proudly and enthusiastically. On the flip side, how would we feel if we had to pay for an answer when we posted a question? Some businesses do exactly that.

I once found this graphic design blog that talked about the problems with design contests.  The blog owner advised graphic designers NOT to participate in contests, even if there are prizes.  His reasoning was that once you submit an idea, the contest holder either owns that idea, or can take all the ideas, evaluate them, and come up with an improvement on the ideas all with NO COMPENSATION!  It was a "free" way for the poster to have people do work for them, which they would later market or take credit for.

After reading that blog post, I realized that the guy was right.  I changed my whole philosophy on providing feedback and how I dealt with companies.  Quid pro quo - I provide you an idea, and if you market it and make money off of it, then at least give me something for it.  If not, I'm not going to expend my intellectual capital providing something that will enrich you, but not provide any compensation to me.  Festool charges a kings ransom for what they produce.  They are very proud of their intellectual capital.    Us common folk, however, shouldn't be so proud of our intellectual capital and should provide these ideas for "free".

I want to make it 100% clear that in no way am I in the position to be speaking for Festool; but I have been "associated with them (ISA/Dealer) for over 8 years, so I think I may have a feel for some things.  Festool's R & D  department is probaly as old as the Company. Festool has taken ownership of the FOG less than 2 years. While a truly valuable resource, and it is a valuable source of ideas and feedback, it is only a small (if any at all) part of the R & D. And if truth be told, when the FOG first became a reality some years ago (on Yahoo) it was Matt Schenker's baby all the way. Festool had not an inkling's notice of it's existence until it was up and running and frankly didn't have any desire to be part of this type of forum. After some "issues" occurred in 2008, only then did Festool assume ownership of the FOG. I am glad they did; perhaps it would have folded, perhaps a major Festool Dealer would have bought it. In any case, we are left with a pretty darn good and valuable resource; which doesn't cost consumers a penny.

What really drives me insane about Festool is that it seems that Festool has an incredibly tight and arrogant policy about pricing, "comps" and so forth.  Yes, there is good service, but it seems like the ideas and compensation only seems to go one way.  You provide the ideas, they produce the products and then turn around and charge you a king's ransom for them.  There may be some sort of "legal" reason for not providing compensation, but I think that could be remedied with a simple release at time of compensation.

Sorry you feel this way, but I guess we will be at a loss awaiting your future contributions - and I don't mean that sarcastically.  

Also, I am amazed that many of the members are so accepting of the philosophy of "those who pay for the tools give", while those who "are paid for the tools take".  Remember my posts complaining about the rail damaged in shipment?  I received a lot of feedback that I should take the hit and should just deal with it, and still let the dealer collect the full amount.  "Those are the chances you take", "accidents happen so deal with it" and other feedback was provided.  Again, I had to "give" while others got to "take" seemed to be the accepted attitude.

No, it's more like "even in the best of circumstances, problems/damage can happen, get it resolved quickly and fairly". Festool apparently jumped in and sent a new profile; yes, it's an inconvenience, no question and the dealer could have been paying upwards of $250 shipping for a shipment-return-reshipment. In the course of doing business, there sometimes is a bit of give and take; honest mistakes happen; few have a 100% perfect score here. But, it's how quickly the mistakes are remedied that I think are most indicative of a good company and the kind that as a consumer I find easiest to do business with.

As bad and un-community-ish as this sounds, I would advise people not to provide fixes or ideas for solving these problems until we start receiving some reasonable compensation for them.  And a tape measure or t-shirt is not reasonable compensation.
If Festool is so proud of their Research and Development, and they charge us for it, then allow them to earn it.  Don't give it to them.  If we want to be a community, lets stop the one way game of "everybody get's paid, except for you".

Personally, I just find that whole attitude abhorrent ("I did this, so you owe me something") - so against my grain and the way operate my business and in my life; and believe me, I ain't no saint. Let's take it a small step further; why not just  let's ask a question here on the FOG and have to pay somebody/whomever to get an answer? IMHO, the beauty of the FOG (and most similar forums) is not only the vast knowledge freely disseminated, but also the community atmosphere  generated and maintained, not by edict, but by the downright decency of most people willing to share their knowledge and experiences just to help another member.

My rant is over.

So's mine.

Bob
Click to expand...
 
Bob, great response!  I agree on all points. 

I think the value of Craig's Tilt Locker comes when something unexpected happens during the cut -- say, the hose or cord catches.  This Tilt Locker may just save the day. 
 
Corwin said:
Bob, great response!  I agree on all points. 

I think the value of Craig's Tilt Locker comes when something unexpected happens during the cut -- say, the hose or cord catches.  This Tilt Locker may just save the day. 
Click to expand...

Thanks Corwin. Agreed about Craig's Tilt Locker.

Bob
 
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