Toasted CT22 Motor Module (thanks to Dust Deputy) !

[rrmccabe]

Not blaming this on Festool..

I just bought an Ultimate Dust Deputy for the festool CT22.

I installed it per the manufacturers instructions  and it worked really well although I have some static issues even with the metal tape they send with it.

Today I was using it and felt the static build and it started shocking me as it went up the hose.  Next thing you know the dust extractor stops.

I talked to Steve in support.  For those that have not called support before, Steve at Festool is reason enough to purchase their product!

Anyway, the motor is standard 120 V AC so was easy to jump the motor out and check it.  Turns out the motor is fine but controller is shot !

I called the Dust Deputy people and they have a fix which is basically lots more tape.  Looks like a cobbled up mess to me (see attached). They will be sending a kit out on Monday.

Can not say I am happy about this. 

For now I left a cord hanging out of the front of my CT22 so I can run the motor direct.  When I get some extra funds I will order a new controller.

Irritates me that the Ultimate Dust Deputy cost over twice as much as the standard unit because it was "designed for the CT". Yet it has issues with the unit it was designed for.

Looks like the new fix Oneida has is similar to what I have seen posted on this site.  I know I saw a post about the static zapping the module but couldn't find it searching today.

Grrrrrr.

 

[PaulMarcel]

Not having opened my CT22, I wonder if you could run a ground wire from the metal tape into the unit to strap it to ground.  I did that on my previous DC unit as I was getting zapped from 8" away; I fixed it when I felt I had created enough new vocabulary.

One option would be to tie it to the "tool plug" on the front, but since that's switched, I don't think it would work as well as strapping it to the ground coming in off the mains.

Have you disconnected the controller completely then tried it again?  Yeah, nuts, but I had an audio amp that suddenly completely stopped working from the intermediates out.  Unplugging it for minutes didn't work.  I left it unplugged for a week (the caps for the finals have a lot of capacity).  Plugged it back in, been working for years.

 

[rrmccabe]

Hey Paul,

Yes there are places to ground it inside so plan on doing something to get it back to building ground. I think the back fo the tool plug is best place to do it because there is a cover with seal over the board and might be tough to get a wire to it.  Tool plug is simple.

I guess my concern (even if their fix works) is  longevity. Wondering how long sticky metal tape is going to hold up sliding hoses on and off. I am honestly thinking about getting some copper strap for the inside and running a bolt from inside to out (smooth head in) and connecting all the points with wire.

Not to mention the fix they suggest looks pretty Red Green. Just need to toss in a little duct tape

And yes I had it unplugged for a while. 

 

[AlexThePalex]

I'm curious, did Steve say anything about how static electricity can destroy the control module? Just wondering how this is possible.

 

[Administrator_JSVN]

I'm curious, did Steve say anything about how static electricity can destroy the control module? Just wondering how this is possible.

Thousands of volts through a piece of electronics that runs off about 10 volts. That's how.  [tongue]

 

[rrmccabe]

Static is a lot like lighting in that you never know the path it will take or how far it will jump.  Heck its shocking me through the plastic hose which normally would be a good insulator !

Yes, I wish the module was more robust but I dont feel its Festool's fault. When I get the extra money I will order a replacement.

Also, I  can't do Dust Deputy's rigged fix. I dont have taped up tools in my shop and I am not going to start.

So I started my own fix tonight. Same electrical principals as theirs, just better done.

Here are a couple pictures.

 

[jacko9]

I hope the folks at Oneida visit the FOG every now and then since I also have the CT22 and Ultimate Dust Deputy.  I would be interested in seeing your complete fix when your finished.

Jack

 

[ridgenj]

I just got my DD and need also to figure out a fix too.

Would be nice to get some sort of instructions for dummies, LOL
Cheers
Luis

 

[rrmccabe]

Here is the instructions for dummies they sent me.

Basically its all about getting metal in all three connector rings an then connecting them together. Also connecting to the flange at the base of the cyclone.  I am going to put a metal tab inside under the flange as well.

As you can see in the instructions it is a cobbled up mess.  My thin copper plate does the same thing and will be more durable. Also its thick enough I can bolt a wire to it and connect the points with wire and not run ugly tape all over the place.

 

[ridgenj]

Many thanks! I like your solution much better , please share once you feel it's the right time.

Luis

 

[rrmccabe]

I will.

For your info I am doing this with off the shelf materials.  I took a chunk of 1/2 copper plumbing pipe I had laying around and cut it long ways with shears. Hammered flat and then into shape.

I do have a question for Festool Staff.  I just bought a 7 meter NON antistatic hose that came this week. I am about afraid to use it now.  Does Festool have any comments on a the two types of hose on this issue?

Rich

 

[Administrator_JSVN]

Rich, I can only say that our accessories work fine together and I know info reports of damage to CT electronics when using the non-antistatic hose. That being said, using third party accessories may void your warranty and I can't offer advice of them. However there have been an increasing number of reported problems with the DD.

 

[rrmccabe]

Well I am way out of warranty. I guess it was a general question for the experts. Wondering if the non static hose will help.  I am guessing no.

I am hoping once I get the ports all grounded my issue will go away. 

 

[TomGadwa1]

The problem with the Dust Deputy and static discharge most likely is due to the choice in material that the Dust Deputy is made of. It should be made of conductive plastic (usually black color). This type of plastic will conduct static charges on a continuous basis to ground if provided with a shunting path. A shunting path will safely discharge the static buildup before it can reach the MICROELECTRONIC module that runs the CT. IF conductive plastic is not used for the Dust Deputy then a static charge can build and build up to thousands of volts! After enough charge builds as with LIGHTNING the charge will seek the easiest path to ground! If this path is through the CT control module then usually catastrophic will result rendering the CT module to an unusable state. I consulted with an OEM manufacturer that made X-Ray film digitizers about a similar matter as they were having strange failures to their control logic boards which had a lovely plexiglass shield to protect the board. The plexiglass was building up static charges due to the movement of the film through the digitizer unit. As the plexiglass material was NOT conductive static electricity was building up on the shield. Ultimately the charge would find the EASIEST path to ground. This path happened to be through the microelectronics of the control logic board. This was verified by the firms engineering department. Subsequently the firm changed from the plexiglass shield to the black conductive plastic for the shield and the problems with their control logic completely went away! What am I saying? I suggesting to the folks at Dust Deputy to employ CONDUCTIVE plastic material for their product so that they will not damage the microelectronics that are present in the FESTOOL CT product line.   
 

 

[AlexThePalex]

I'm curious, did Steve say anything about how static electricity can destroy the control module? Just wondering how this is possible.

Thousands of volts through a piece of electronics that runs off about 10 volts. That's how.  [tongue]

Yeah, alright, I could imagine that myself.  [blink] You make it sound like my question was dumb. Remember, there are no dumb questions, only dumb people [wink]. But I wonder, how did those thousands of volts get there in the first place? Since static is a problem that happens very much with vacs, shouldn't the vac's electronic components be shielded against that? I'd imagine that if they were not shielded they would be zapped into oblivion all the time.  

 

[festoolviking]

Hi

This all makes me wonder? How many CT bags can you get for the price of a Dust deputy, accessories for grounding and a new controller unit for the CT. Is it really worth it?
It even seems cheaper to get a long-life bag for the CT.

???

Festoolviking

 

[rrmccabe]

Since static is a problem that happens very much with vacs, shouldn't the vac's electronic components be shielded against that? I'd imagine that if they were not shielded they would be zapped into oblivion all the time. 

Alex, most "vacuums" are simple devices with a power switch and motor. Something the static usually doesn't cause problems with. The Festool has a motor controller for speeds as well as a circuit to auto-start tools.  The actual dust deputy was a cheap cyclone for the woodworker with a shop vac.

They decided to make a version special for the Festool that is a box instead of bucket that sits on top of the CT. They really did not take their design and testing far enough (in my opinion).

Hi

This all makes me wonder? How many CT bags can you get for the price of a Dust deputy, accessories for grounding and a new controller unit for the CT. Is it really worth it?
It even seems cheaper to get a long-life bag for the CT. ???

Festoolviking

Not many. In my case a $199 Ultimate Dust deputy will pay for itself easy.  Course not if its zapping controllers !

 

[waho6o9]

Interesting thread, thanks for posting.

 

[peter halle]

This is an interesting discussion to me.  I don't have the the Ultimate Dust Deputy but rather one of their others that I use in conjunction with my CT-22.  I enjoy it for the added dust collection before the "Vac", but that copper tape was not an experience that worked for me.

There have been - as pointed out - more issues with static lately with the aftermarket DD and the Festool product that they were designed to work with.  That isn't a Festool issue.  That is a RD issue with the third party add-in product.  IMHO the impetus is with the manufacturer of the DD to either step up to the plate to ensure compatibility or cease sales unless they are going to cover the risks of damage after the sale and integration of their product.

This is not meant to be inflammatory or derogatory to the manufacturer of the DD but rather my opinion as a consumer.

Peter

 

[Rick Christopherson]

I'm curious, did Steve say anything about how static electricity can destroy the control module? Just wondering how this is possible.

Thousands of volts through a piece of electronics that runs off about 10 volts. That's how.  [tongue]

Yeah, alright, I could imagine that myself.  [blink] You make it sound like my question was dumb. Remember, there are no dumb questions, only dumb people [wink]. But I wonder, how did those thousands of volts get there in the first place? Since static is a problem that happens very much with vacs, shouldn't the vac's electronic components be shielded against that? I'd imagine that if they were not shielded they would be zapped into oblivion all the time.  

No, it wasn't a dumb question. Under normal conditions, regardless whether an antistatic or non-antistatic hose is used, the electronics module is not subject to significant static discharge. Even with the case of a non-antistatic hose, the hose will build up a charge, but it will not rapidly discharge into the vac.

However, with the dust deputy, the charge inside the DD and upstream from the DD will build to much higher levels because it cannot bleed off faster than it builds. When it builds to a high enough level, you will have the equivalent of a miniature lightning strike inside the system. Just like real lightning that strikes near (not necessarily on) your home, it will wipe out most electronic systems, regardless whether they are grounded or even protected.

In order for there to be a spark in air, the charge has to build to 33,000 volts per centimeter of distance of the spark's jump/gap. So depending on where the spark finally jumped, that distance can be fairly large, and therefore would require huge voltages before it can occur. No conductor, not even copper wire, is a perfect conductor. So this rapid discharge will still result in a voltage throughout the whole system.

I am not entirely positive about this next statement, so don't quote it as gospel. I believe that the worst scenario you could have would be to have antistatic hoses between the DD and the vac, and between the DD and tool. In this situation, both hoses will be doing their jobs for their areas, but the DD becomes a "charge bottleneck", and all the difference in charge will be concentrated to a smaller area.  It will build up until it can rapidly discharge.

Again, I am not totally positive about this, but if you used non-antistatic hoses, the charge would be spread out across a longer distance. You would be less likely to have a rapid discharge of high magnitude. That doesn't mean you wouldn't have any discharges, but they would be smaller and not necessarily directly coupled to the vac. But of course, this means you would have more nuisance shocks for the operator.