Torx-drive Spax screws are available...

[Ned]

Steve D'Gerolamo's Ultimate Garage offers Spax screws, some of which are Torx drive.  He says that Spax is making a transition in NA to Torx drive.  Good news, I think.

Here's his Spax page and the specific listing for one of the MDF screws.  Be careful ordering because right now only some of the Spax items are Torx, most are the Phillips/Robertson Quadrex.  I've used the Quadrex for years with square drive bits, and they are good, but I'd be happy to make the transition to Torx.

Steve was an active member of the old Yahoo FOG and is a Festool dealer.  I don't recall seeing him on this, the FOG Mk II.

No connection, no monetary association, but Steve's welcome to send me a check or goods in gratitude...

Ned

 

[Dan Clark]

Ned,

OK.  I'll bite.  What's a Spax screw?  Why is it better? 

Thanks,

Dan. 

P.s., I'm a big fan of Torx screws. 

 

[Michael Kellough]

Ned said; "...Spax is making a transition in NA to Torx drive.  Good news, I think."

Looking forward to this too. I don't like the combo drive screws as much as the "pure" forms.

 

[Dan Clark]

OK, forget the question.  I did some research.  They seem like good screws.  However...

I'm curious why Spax screws would be better than Screw-Products screws.   Screw-Products sells nothing but Torx head screws.    I've used thousands of them in various sizes.   Here's their home page:http://www.screw-products.com/.   Has anyone used both and can compare?

Thanks,

Dan.

 

[Ned]

About Spax vs Screw Products:

Haven't use the Screw Products products.  Thanks for the tip.

The two product lines have some, but not a lot of, overlap.

Spax screws drive easily, because the first threads (effectively wider) cut a path with some clearance for the following threads.  Torque required is more nearly constant.  Works nicely with screwdrivers with limited torque.

The MDF Spax are indeed self-drilling and worth every penny.

Ned

 

[tvgordon]

Hey Dan, I've been looking at the screw products screws but can't decide if they are that much better (or even better at all) than the square drive screws I'm using now.  Have you used square drive and, if so, why do use Torx head now?
Thanks, Tom.

 

[Dan Clark]

When sistering a whole series of joists, I needed big lag screws to straighten cupped joists and ensure that the old joist and it's new sister were tightly clamped together while the adhesive set.  I used 5/16" X 3" (and sometimes 3-1/2") lag screws.

When I first tried some phillips head screws about 80% cammed out.  I tried square drive, but about 20-30% cammed out.  With Torx, less than 5% cammed out.  I've since tried several other square drive screws.  They are much better than phillips, but not as good as Torx.

Regards,

Dan.

 

[Paul Franklin]

Dan

I have used bth screws, I must admit I prefer the Spax night and day above the Screw Products. I believe the Screw products are made in China (I may be wrong) the Spax are German. I have never had a piece of wood split or a snapped screw with Spax, but I have with the others, they seem like expensive versions of the screws you buy at the big box stores.
They used to sell Spax at the HD but the ones I use they seem t have stopped selling, they sell Spax deck screws now. I usually go to Grainger now.

Regards
Paul

 

[Ned]

There are two discussions about screws going on here.

One has to do with the pointy end.

The other has to do with the driver end.

The pointy end is pretty important.  In the sizes in which they're available, I'd rather use Spax for reasons I cited above.  Even if I have to use square or Quadrex bits.

If I could choose screws based entirely on the driver end, I'd use Torx every time.  And for the reasons Dan gave, if I can't get Torx (which is most of the time) I prefer square.  And if that isn't available, I'll take something from the Phillips family.  Straight slots are absolutely dead last.

Ned

 

[Michael Kellough]

One combo head screw I do like is the slotted/torx style found on Festool router base plates. The slot lets you make fine adjustments and keep track in terms of fractions of a turn. Other styles are too hard to distinguish one corner from another.

Otherwise I too like the Torx style best for it's superior fit and strength.

I like auger point screws (like Kreg pocket hole screws) for general use. For soft woods they rarely need a pilot hole. For composite manufactured woods the Spax point works best. The sharp wavy business end threads cut a path for for the following threads and the smaller than normal shank (made of better than normal steel) can compress the wood tightly around the threads without splitting (usually).

I have a low tolerance for splitting. With multiple drills and hundreds of drill bits and many choices of pilot bits there is no excuse for not drilling a pilot hole if there is the slightest chance that a split could occur and spoil the work. I often have three cordless drills standing by loaded with pilot drill, countersink, and driver respectively. Most of my drills are the T handle style. I prefer that mostly because they can stand up on the bench above the clutter and so are easy to grab. The C12 style is superb (mine is the similar but older CDD 12) because it has the direct lie of force grip style of the pistol grip drill and it will still stand up on the bench.

Just my opinion.

 

[Dan Clark]

Dan

I have used bth screws, I must admit I prefer the Spax night and day above the Screw Products. I believe the Screw products are made in China (I may be wrong) the Spax are German. I have never had a piece of wood split or a snapped screw with Spax, but I have with the others, they seem like expensive versions of the screws you buy at the big box stores.
They used to sell Spax at the HD but the ones I use they seem t have stopped selling, they sell Spax deck screws now. I usually go to Grainger now.

Regards
Paul

The Screw Products screws are made in Taiwan, not China.    Regarding the Screw Products screws, I've very rarely had wood split.  Of the thousands of Screw Products screws I've used, I've only lost 2-3 heads.  (That is so rare, that I'm stretching saying that.)    Regarding cost, I find them very inexpensive compared to some brands and the ones I've used have been FAR superior to the junk at Home Despot and Lowers.

I haven't tried Spax, but I'll take a look. 

Regards,

Dan.

 

[Dan Clark]

If I could choose screws based entirely on the driver end, I'd use Torx every time.  And for the reasons Dan gave, if I can't get Torx (which is most of the time) I prefer square.  And if that isn't available, I'll take something from the Phillips family.  Straight slots are absolutely dead last.

Ned,

That's my exact order.  When you're screwing in big lag screws in a confined space over your head, it's extremely tiring and Torx screws were the only ones that performed. 

Regarding the pointy end, I'm looking at the Spax.

Dan.

 

[Paul Franklin]

Dan

I have used bth screws, I must admit I prefer the Spax night and day above the Screw Products. I believe the Screw products are made in China (I may be wrong) the Spax are German. I have never had a piece of wood split or a snapped screw with Spax, but I have with the others, they seem like expensive versions of the screws you buy at the big box stores.
They used to sell Spax at the HD but the ones I use they seem t have stopped selling, they sell Spax deck screws now. I usually go to Grainger now.

Regards
Paul

The Screw Products screws are made in Taiwan, not China.    Regarding the Screw Products screws, I've very rarely had wood split.  Of the thousands of Screw Products screws I've used, I've only lost 2-3 heads.  (That is so rare, that I'm stretching saying that.)    Regarding cost, I find them very inexpensive compared to some brands and the ones I've used have been FAR superior to the junk at Home Despot and Lowers.

I haven't tried Spax, but I'll take a look. 

Regards,

Dan.

Dan

Thanks for the clarification, but still not the best quality I fear, I have only used a few hundred and have had a few more break than you, but no where near the amount if I got screws from the HD.

FYI Taiwan is part of (governed by) the Republic of China.

Paul

 

[Paul Franklin]

Dan

Don't get me wrong, these are far better than the screws from HD or Lowes but I feel they are over priced Chinese (Taiwanese) imports.

By the way the Spax Torx screws have been available since at least 2005. But not in NA, I have been using them since then, as I have brought back several boxes, but are very low now, so its good they are finally here in NA.

Paul

 

[Dan Clark]

Dan

I have used bth screws, I must admit I prefer the Spax night and day above the Screw Products. I believe the Screw products are made in China (I may be wrong) the Spax are German. I have never had a piece of wood split or a snapped screw with Spax, but I have with the others, they seem like expensive versions of the screws you buy at the big box stores.
They used to sell Spax at the HD but the ones I use they seem t have stopped selling, they sell Spax deck screws now. I usually go to Grainger now.

Regards
Paul

The Screw Products screws are made in Taiwan, not China.    Regarding the Screw Products screws, I've very rarely had wood split.  Of the thousands of Screw Products screws I've used, I've only lost 2-3 heads.  (That is so rare, that I'm stretching saying that.)    Regarding cost, I find them very inexpensive compared to some brands and the ones I've used have been FAR superior to the junk at Home Despot and Lowers.

I haven't tried Spax, but I'll take a look. 

Regards,

Dan.

Dan

Thanks for the clarification, but still not the best quality I fear, I have only used a few hundred and have had a few more break than you, but no where near the amount if I got screws from the HD.

FYI Taiwan is part of (governed by) the Republic of China.

Paul

Paul,

The Republic of China and the People's Republic of China are two different countries.  The first is what we refer to as Taiwan and the second is what we refer to as China. 

The first has some very fine craftsman, while the second is primarily known for low-quality goods.  Neither are necessarily true and will change going forward.

Regards,

Dan.

 

[Wim]

To set the record straight, Taiwan (former Formosa) and its surrounding islands form the Republic of China. They claim that the mainland China is a part of the Republic of China. It is oriented toward Western society.
Mainland China, aka Peoples Republic of China, on the other hand claims that Taiwan is a province of mainland China. Now and then rattling of sabres is heard from their armed forces.

### Dan, you beat me by a few seconds.

 

[Dan Clark]

Dan

Don't get me wrong, these are far better than the screws from HD or Lowes but I feel they are over priced Chinese (Taiwanese) imports.

By the way the Spax Torx screws have been available since at least 2005. But not in NA, I have been using them since then, as I have brought back several boxes, but are very low now, so its good they are finally here in NA.

Paul

Paul,

Please don't refer to the Taiwanese and Chinese as the same people.  They are historically, but Taiwan is democratic.  China is not.  You will offend a lot of people from both countries by referring to them as the same country.

Regarding cost, I did a comprison between Screw Products and GRK which has a lot of fans on JLC.  I don't know the cost comparison between GRK and Spax, but it might be similar.  I pasted my JLC comparison below.    I haven't the time right now to add a Spax cost comparison.  Maybe in a few weeks.  If you want to use this as a basis and add Spax, please go ahead.

Regards,

Dan.

----

I found a local GRK vendor called Fastenal who also has a web page. just for grins, I priced out several screws from both companies. Sizes are not exact, but this is the closest I could get.

Results...

Cabinet screws:
#10 x 2-1/2" - Screw Products: $8.00/lb (approx 82)
#8 x 2-1/2" - GRK from Fastenal: $17/100

Coutersink Multi Purpose Wood screws:
#8 x 1-1/4" - Screw Products: $6.75/lb (approx 231)
#8 x 1-1/4" - GRK from Fastenal: $8.00/100

Finish Trim Head Screws:
#7 X 2" - Screw Products: $7.75/lb (approx 190)
#8 x 2" - GRK from Fastenal: $13.00/100

Some notes:
- Each company may offer trade discounts, but those aren't listed on the websites.

- It doesn't appear if Fastenal offers discounts for quantity. They seem to come in the 100 pack.

- Screw Products has quantity discounts for 5 lb and carton sizes. (I usually buy the 5lb size.) For example, the 5 lb box of #10 x 2-1/2" cabinet screws (approx 410) is $38.49, or a savings of about $6.50 over the 1lb size. A 25lb carton (approx 2,000 is $132.07, or a savings of $60 over the 5lb size.

They also have assortments of a bunch of similar screws in multiple sizes so you can try several types out. The Cabinet/Finish ?Star Drive? Wood Screw Assortment Kit is $54.49:http://www.screw-products.com/diy.htm.

- Screw Products 1lb and 5lb sizes come in screw top plastic jars; the bulk carton is a box. I keep the empty jars for parts storage. Here's a page showing some of the screws and the storage jars:http://www.screw-products.com/pdfs/s...ail-july06.pdf. (This page also shows some of their assortment kits too.)

-Screw Products Shipping for 3 screws listed above is $8.19. Shipping is free for orders over $75.

- Fastenal doesn't give you the shipping charge when place the order online. Since I can buy local, shipping shouldn't be an issue. But it irritates me that you can't get the shipping charge until AFTER you place the online order.

When I first started comparing the fasteners, I was just curious about GRK price differences. GRK may be better screws and Fastenal may be a high priced vendor, but after this little excercise, I think I'm getting a pretty good deal from Screw-Products.

Regards,

Dan.

 

[Paul Franklin]

Dan

My Apologies re the Taiwan - China thing I do not want to offend anyone. Although I still disagree about the quality. I guess it is just my opinion that I have not had good luck with Screw Products screws. But again I use the smaller screws (as a cabinet maker) I do not do heavy construction.

Fastenal also sell Spax, but they are the most expensive place to purchase them. There used to be a place near Paine Field that sold them at a good price, but I am not sure if they still do.

Paul

 

[Michael Kellough]

...
When I first started comparing the fasteners, I was just curious about GRK price differences. GRK may be better screws and Fastenal may be a high priced vendor, but after this little excercise, I think I'm getting a pretty good deal from Screw-Products.

Regards,

Dan.

What does GRK stand for? Do you have a link?

 

[woodshopdemos]

This is and has been an interesting thread. It does make me miss Jim Ray of the old McFeeleys. He would have a lot to contribute on the screw discusion. Instead, he is out fishing for American made fish, I presume.