TS55 and Off Brand saw blades?

[rodwolfy]

Hey guys,

I've been having problems with my new TS55 burning 3/4" plywood (40 day old saw). Both sides of the cut are burned and the motor shuts down. I called Uncle Bob and he's sending along a new blade to see if it's the blade's fault (And for any of you lurkers, here's another plug for Bob Marino. Outstanding service. I'm very happy that I chose to do business with him over a store or ebay. You'll likely never need service with Festool, but if you do, Bob will take care of you!). I did some laminate floor work before my shoulder surgery (3 weeks ago) and I'm guessing that the blade might have dulled a bit (but, I cut only about 20 ft of laminate with the blade). I read over a bunch of posts on burning and cleaning, getting some good ideas. I've now spend 2 hours time cleaning the blades (45 minutes, 3 times each, scraping all sides of the teeth with an xacto blade). The blade gums up after the first cut. I thought that it was the 1 1/2" foam that was melting to the blade, but it happened with 3/4" plywood as a cutting surface too.

I called Tech support for Festool today and spoke with Dave and Lester. Dave said that before Festool introduced the TS55 to the market, they contacted the laminate flooring manufacturers for ideas. He said that they had planned on marketing the TS55 to the flooring market. Pergo stepped up and Festool tried their blades on Pergo. Dave said that they learned that laminate will only give you about 100' of cuts before the blade is shot. This is because of the aluminum oxide in the coating (which is why they can give a 25 year warranty) is so tough. Its the same stuff that's in sandpaper - highly abrasive. He said that flooring installers usually take about 5 blades with them when they go out on a job. (This brought up a question for me to ask the group: As a Festool laminate blade is like $60 each, I was wondering if you guys had ever used a blade from another manufacturer on your saw? I read one and saw that Lou Miller had used a bunch of "throw away" blades to cut laminate.)

Dave went over the toe-in adjustments (which are in Rick Christopherson's TS55 manual) with me. Basically, you do a cut using the guide rail, then put the blade back on the cut. You adjust the saw so that the front of the blade is touching the wood and the back of the blade (and the riving knife) are about a business card's thickness away (mentioned as about .04). I did this after cleaning the blade and it gummed up again on the second cut, stalling out the motor again. Dave said that the power will increase slightly over the first 10 hours of use, as the motor brushes settled in. He also said to increase the depth of cut as it will give the saw more power.

I asked him about saw blades. Dave said that Festool blades are made by a European company. He said that many American companies also make blades for the European market, complete with the Euro arbor sizing. Specifically, he mentioned cheap Vermont American blades. I'd like to get a saw blade that has a Teflon coating, so the blade stays cool longer and doesn't gum up. I checked Freud's website and only found American saw compatable sizing. But, when I checked Freud Italy (in English), they have a 160mmx20mm blade with a 3,2mm arbor. I'm guessing that CMT and others also offer blades. (Hey Dave Ronyak, if your still in Germany, can you check on this???)

I checked Festools site today and noticed something different than what I had recalled from past discussions too. The Universal blade is said to be 2.5mm and the all around Combination blade is too. The Panther is listed at 2.8mm. These are different kerfs that what had been posted before (2.2mm and 2.5mm). Did Festool change the blades? Or is their website wrong or whats up? I would like to stay with the same blade kerf as is on my 48 tooth blade. The Festool blade that I have is great. However, I'd like it if Festool offered a coated blade too (Christian, are you listening?).

Thanks!
Rod

 

[richard.selwyn]

Can't really add much new, except to confirm laminate flooring kills blades - I always have to get my blades resharpened after they cut flooring. 

And yes, the kerf widths are different - I have a fine kerf festool blade, but I get the feeling its discontinued as I can't find it in the 2007 catalogue.  Different kerf widths are a pain when using the rails - I used to use two sets of rails to allow for that - but now that I use a TS75 as well its all gone a bit pear shaped.

 

[mntbighker]

Would I be out of line thinking they need (they being a generic they) a diamond blade for doing laminate?

 

[rodwolfy]

Would I be out of line thinking they need (they being a generic they) a diamond blade for doing laminate?

It sure sounds like it. If the flooring is made of the same abrasive stuff as sandpaper, how long would it take to grind an edge dull? Minutes, seconds?

 

[The Woodentop]

Some sound advice would be to avoid wood laminate flooring. It's god damn awful. Trailer park trash?

 

[Lou Miller]

Some sound advice would be to avoid wood laminate flooring. It's god damn awful. Trailer park trash?

I don't know if I'd go as far as calling it trailer park trash, but its a terrible product. Why anyone would want that crap in their home is beyond me. Then again, I have a lot of experience dealing with the negatives of laminate, so my opinion is probably skewed quite a bit. Anyone that is going to use laminate flooring should at least take a long look at engineered flooring instead. Its ten times better and it doesn't have that horribly fake look or sound to it.

As to the original post in this thread. I can tell you, almost without a doubt, that you simply ruined your blade cutting laminate with it. It doesn't take long at all. As to getting throw away blades for the TS55, I'd love to find a place to get them, but have no idea. You could have the arbor rebored on just about any blade I'd imagine, but would it really be worth it? Of course, you'd have very limited selection due to the size of the blade needed to fit the TS55 though.

Anytime I work with laminates today (fortunately for me its very rare today), I put a throw away blade in my portable table saw and use that for the cutting. With a vac hooked up to it, the dust collection isn't quite as good as it is with the TS55, but it isn't that bad either. Then I just buy the cheapest blades I can find for a 5/8" arbor. Most of the time I end up with 7-1/4" blades that are only a couple of dollars each. They work well and I just toss them when the job is over. Festool doesn't really give you any decent options for working with laminate, IMO. Their blades just cost too much to be throw aways. Other than inlays and stuff like that, a correctly installed laminate floor doesn't show a single cut throughout the entire job, so having a tool as precise as the TS55 is overkill for that work. If I have a customer call me and ask for a laminate floor with some type of inlay, I tell them to call someone else. I won't touch it. Only engineered or wood floors for me.

 

[Eli]

Vermont American? I think they make euro arbor blades don't they?

 

[mntbighker]

Some sound advice would be to avoid wood laminate flooring. It's god damn awful. Trailer park trash?

I resemble that remark 

I recently installed a large area of my "Mobile Home" with laminate. It works well for me with my cat that pukes a lot (http://ramaspot.net). He happens to be partly a breed prone to it. I am probably going to become a wood snob soon having come recently to the Festool fold. Unfortunately being a stick house owner in most parts of the country costs the same as being a mobile home owner in silicone valley. I won't leave my NASA job just to enable me to live in a house some place cheaper. I will say that I found the high density foam core of the laminate to be terrible crumbly crap. I have a bedroom left to do and have begun looking at alternate products.

--Mark

p.s. I visited a Woodcraft today for the first time and they had a nice big Festool dept. It's a good thing I'm broke because it was an exercise in self control. I spent some time looking at TS55 blades while I was there but didn't opt to add to my collection. I'm surprised I never see Forrest mentioned here since they make Festool blades. They make some of the best Carbide blades you can buy. My chop saw blade is a Forrest Chopmaster and I have visited cabinet shops that won't use anything else. Our shop at work swears by them. Of course they only seem to offer a 50 tooth Woodworker I.

 

[BC6738F5BCE98B4]

If you want a 20mm arbor Woodworker I blade, take a look athttp://www.amazon.com/Forrest-WW165...30-5839901?ie=UTF8&s=hi&qid=1198555050&sr=1-2

If the weblink is not useful, check Amazon.com with the description "Forrest WW16507100 Woodworker I 160mm 50 Tooth 20mm Arbor 3/32" Kerf Circular Saw Blade For Festool Saws"

Haven't checked the other brands, but my guess (based on the price of the Forest Woodworker I blade) is that they are all "comparable" to the Festool price -- all of which are considerably more than what is available locally at the big box stores. 

My questin is whether anyone knows of a decent, but cheap (under 25) blade that will safely work in a Festool saw?  When I am cutting a variety of materials (pressure treated lumber comes readily to mind) I grab my Porter Cable Circular saw not because it is a better saw but because I can put a cheap blade on it and throw it out when done.

 

[Eli]

I say again, check Vermont American

 

[Tinker]

Vermont American? I think they make euro arbor blades don't they?

Eli, You are correct.  They do make euro arbor blades.  If you wade thru a heap of VA blades, you find one blade.  185mm w 20mm arbor. 

not really much selection I could find there.

If I am cutting material that I suspect will possibly damage my blades, i usually go to my old Milwaukee 7-1/2" with negative pitch blade.  I have spoken on a few threads here on the FOG about some of the goodies i have managed to saw/cut/chop thru with that combination. 

I have no experience with the material discussed in this discussion, but is it possible, it being a consensus that blades are certain to be damaged, that jigsaw might be a way to go.  Use jigsaw to make cut, say 1/16" off line and then finish with block plane?  Just a question.

I have done flooring and it has been my experience that cuts at end or along walls never show, so why would one feel the need to use the best blades/best saw to make any of those hidden cuts. 

This whole discussion is very interresting to me as THE BOSS would very much like new floors in the house.  I am thinking lazy and have been asking around about some overlay material.  Of course, I am also looking into various projects that can make use of old hardwood flooring.  I have made letterboxes and picture frames upon ocassion.  By the time one planes down the finish and the underside grooving, there jes ain't much left.
Tinker

 

[Daviddubya]

Eli, You are correct.  They do make euro arbor blades.  If you wade thru a heap of VA blades, you find one blade.  185mm w 20mm arbor. 

not really much selection I could find there....jes ain't much left.
Tinker

A 185 mm diameter blade is not for a TS55.  The TS55 blades are 160 mm.

 

[Dave Ronyak]

Hey guys,

I've been having problems with my new TS55 burning 3/4" plywood (40 day old saw). Both sides of the cut are burned and the motor shuts down. ... (Hey Dave Ronyak, if your still in Germany, can you check on this???)

I checked Festools site today and noticed something different than what I had recalled from past discussions too. The Universal blade is said to be 2.5mm and the all around Combination blade is too. The Panther is listed at 2.8mm. These are different kerfs that what had been posted before (2.2mm and 2.5mm). Did Festool change the blades? Or is their website wrong or whats up? I would like to stay with the same blade kerf as is on my 48 tooth blade. The Festool blade that I have is great. However, I'd like it if Festool offered a coated blade too (Christian, are you listening?).

Thanks!
Rod

Rod,

Sorry that I did not see your post until today (25 Dec.).  I returned from Germany on 22 Dec.  On 21 Dec I visited Berliner Schrauben, which my daughter located for me using the internet.

The Festool blade offerings at this outlet appeared to be no different from those offered in USA, and the prices were higher, nearly the same number of Euros as we pay in USA in dollars, and the exchange rate is now about US$1.50 per Euro.  The blade thicknesses appeared to be the same as in my 2007 FestoolUSA catalogue.

According to the postings under Festool (Germany) on the internet, this particular dealer was supposed to stock some Festool product lines that are not available in USA, including Kapex.  Unfortunately, they did not have a Kapex in their showroom, and the counter person I spoke with appeared to not even know what a Kapex CMS was.  He tried to direct me to the TS-55, and even when I showed him a Kapex brochure from his store he still did not indicate any understanding or that his dealership had one.  I also showed him a couple of other CMS units on the floor and asked to see the one by Festool.  Most unfortunately, I had only a short time in the store because they were closing early -- Union rules I was told -- and thereafter having a private Christmas party for their employees.  Given there were about 20 vehicles in their lot, including 2 fully custom painted delivery trucks, I was expecting to see much more Festool.  They also carried Makita, Metabo and Mafel circular saws, some of which appeared to be available in different blade sizes.  At least the Makita and Mafel units had guide rail systems.  Unfortunately, the Makita rails (1400 mm) were boxed so I could not determine how they differed from those by Festool.  This dealer had about equal sized displays of Metabo, Makita and Festool power tool products, with noticeably more displays of Festool consumables, including both sizes of planer blades.  Undoubtedly, my very limited German language skills and his very limited English language skills were a hindrance to effective communication.  Given that problem, I never got around to asking about Plug-It adapters as I had planned to do.  My daughter helped me find this Festool dealer store, then she headed back toward her home and the post office, with a plan to return in about one hour.  Had she remained, I would have had an effective translator even though she is not interested in tools!  The store closed before she returned.  I did buy a nice set of German made twist drills 1mm to 10mm in 1/2mm steps in a metal case for 21.3 Euros (about US$32), and had I had more time would have purchased more items, possibly a metric tap and die set.  If I ever get another chance, I will have someone fluent in German call the store before I visit to determine what they can actually show to me. 

Dave R.

 

[Eli]

Well so much for VA blades. I was sure somebody told me they had a few suitable.

 

[Lou Miller]

Well so much for VA blades. I was sure somebody told me they had a few suitable.

They very well may have them available for markets outside NA. However, there just aren't many things here that have a 20mm arbor. The overwhelming percentage of tools here either have a 5/8" or 1" arbor. It wouldn't make a lot of sense for a company to produce a line of blades with 20mm holes in NA unless they had a European market as well. Although, with the gaining popularity of the TS saws, maybe it would make sense for someone to try and capitalize on that segment of the market. I know a ton of carpenters that would love to grab a bunch of cheap blades for numerous different tasks. Most of us just resort to using our Skilsaws (and other older models) instead. It would really be nice if Festool would pay attention to that segment of their market. Even the cheapest blade they sell doesn't make sense for us to buy to cut things like hardiboard, laminates, etc. The blades, no matter how well they are made, just don't hold up. Having an inexpensive alternative is a must if you cut that stuff on a fairly regular basis. I'd love to only cut cabinet grade plywood everyday, but the reality is that there are a lot of days I end up cutting crap all day long and have no choice but to go with another saw.

 

[mntbighker]

Spitballing:

Is sharpening a viable alternative to cheap blades? Forrest makes really big deal about the quality of their sharpening service. Has anyone looked into this as an option? How many times a Festool blade can be sharpened by an efficient shop that won't waste your carbide? If you sharpen a blade 10 times (round number) at $30 ($25 + shipping) = about $360. 11 blades = about $660. I think you see my point. Pretty much every re-sharpen = cheapish blade but with cut quality like a high grade blade.

Is there a diamond cutting technology that works on laminate or ACQ that still gives a good enough cut quality?

 

[rodwolfy]

Dave R,

Your daughter lives in German? Maybe she could call the local hardware store and see if they have any TS55 size blades? 160mm with a 20mm arbor? I was told that several NA companys sell their products in Europe and they are sized to European sizes, including Vermont America. I woul assume that some of the hardware stores over there would carry them. I don't know if there is a Lowes or HD in England or Germany, but if so, I'd guess that they would be able to get ahold of the blades.

Maybe I'll check around on line and see what I can find out....

Rod

 

[Forrest Anderson]

Is sharpening a viable alternative to cheap blades? Forrest makes really big deal about the quality of their sharpening service. Has anyone looked into this as an option? How many times a Festool blade can be sharpened by an efficient shop that won't waste your carbide?

Since my namesake has been mentioned  , I'll quote this article from the Festool FAQ Database:

Question :
Do you offer resharpening services for your circular saw blades?
 
Answer :
We don't provide a sharpening service and have heard that customers experience the same difficulty that you have getting their blades sharpened.

You may want to check to see who else sharpens blades in your area and see who your local professionals recommend.

Some have had better luck shipping blades out to a competent shop. Under normal use, those blades can be resharpened 5 - 7 times.

Your daughter lives in German? Maybe she could call the local hardware store and see if they have any TS55 size blades? 160mm with a 20mm arbor? I was told that several NA companys sell their products in Europe and they are sized to European sizes, including Vermont America. I woul assume that some of the hardware stores over there would carry them. I don't know if there is a Lowes or HD in England or Germany, but if so, I'd guess that they would be able to get ahold of the blades.

We don't have Lowes or Home Depot in the UK. The two main retail home improvement chains are B&Q and Homebase, with B&Q claiming to be the "number one DIY retailer in Europe and third largest in the world" with 332 stores across the UK and Homebase claiming to be the second-largest, with over 300 stores in the UK and Ireland.

It looks as though you missed my recent message in the Consolidated List of Festool Links thread which mentioned that I'd found a review of Festool vs Third-Party blades for the TS55. Published in The Woodworker magazine for Oct 2007, the review compares six Festool blades (incl the Panther), three Freud blades, and a Trend blade, and there's a convenient table with the prices, kerf, and number of teeth. The cheapest was the Trend CraftPro CSB/16024 at 13.57 GBP, but it was regarded as being the worst blade. The second-cheapest was the Freud LP20M 07, at ?13.70, followed by the two other Freuds at 18.00 GBP and 24 GBP. The reviewer liked all the Freud blades and commented on their bargain price. As a price benchmark, the 48 tooth Festool Fine blade (Order No 491952) that we know and love was shown as being 43.99 GBP.

Finding the Trend or Freud blades in specialist shops might be tricky, never mind the big stores, but a Google reveals that the Trend blade is available from several on-line retailers, including tooled-up.com and Buck & Ryan.

As regards finding the Freud blades, if we assume that the "LP20M 07" designation shown in the review and accompanying photo is the same as the "LP20M 007" I found on Google and in catalogues, then several retailers have it for sale, including Freud UK, whilst Rutlands (a very reputable and well-known woodworking specialist) have the LP30M 007 and LP40M 007.

However, it must be said that the cost of shipping one of these cheaper blades to the USA might well turn out to be more than buying a genuine Festool blade from a Festool dealer over there.

Forrest

 

[Eli]

Excellent work as usual, I love when I see the trees through the Forrest. ;D

 

[Forrest Anderson]

Excellent work as usual, I love when I see the trees through the Forrest. ;D

Thank you!

Actually, some of the Freud retailers I found were based in Australia - the Northwood Tool Company in Queensland, and Just Tools of South Melbourne, Victoria. The magazine article recommended the 24-tooth LP30M 007, and both sell it for about 59 AUD, whilst the Festool Universal 28-tooth blade (Order No 490516) seems to sell for 78.32 AUD. So if you ever wanted to try out the Freud product, Just Tools are "just around the corner" from you... 

Forrest