TS55 Kickback

[nickao]

Hey do as you like, and I think I use my tools a little more than the average person as I do it for a living. I can run a business, post, make two projects a week, while watching 6 kids all day. So I can walk and chew gum. How dare you say go work with tools more. Come on over to the house and lets compare tools and projects. Lets see you portfolio and give me a list of 400 happy clients and contractors. You started this and want to

17 years does not impress me. I do not care if you have been doing it 50 years, it means nothing.

Like I said do as you like and when a newbie gets kickback and gets hurt it is on you.

I am not wrong as it is not safe. If it is safe for you fine, it is not for me and do not go telling a newbie it is the right thing to do, its not. I mean I can use a router upside down on a ladder and have done so , it does not make it right. I sure do not want you showing my kids how to operate tools. This is common sense, I really do not care that there is no info excluding it from Festool, I also have not seen anything showing it be used that way. And if there were I still say its wrong.

So wrong in fact if I saw the shop teacher at the high school show the kids i would be their shutting the class down myself.

If people do not post where does the help come from? I am proud of posting a lot, you make it seem bad. I bet I have helped people in 1250 posts out of my 2600. How many have you helped? This is my time and most appreciate it. So again so as you wish. Try picking a fight with me.

Crying, someone asked me why I was restricted I told  them, sounds like you are crying becasue I vehemently disagree with your use of the saw.

You are quite wrong Walnut is a hardwood, but it is NOT hard! Hardwood means leaves on the tree, it does not mean the wood is hard. Actually Walnut is one of the softest hardwoods there is. The Janka rating is WAY down there.

I collect wood so don;t even go there I have taken 32 weeks extensive study in the anatomy of wood and have over 1100 woods in my collection. Collecting wood is my hobby. I can identify any wood and know how. So where the hell did that come from.

Get over it.

 

[nickao]

1925        Merbau
1910        Jarrah
1820        Hickory
1860        Purpleheart
1820        Pecan
1725        Padauk   
1620        Wenge
1450        Hard Maple
1375        Australian Cypress 
1360        White Oak
1320        Ash
1300        American Beech
1290        Red Oak(Northern)
1260        Yellow Birch
1225        Heart Pine
1010        Black Walnut
1000        Teak
0950        Black Cherry
0870        Southern Yellow Pine (long leaf)
0690        Southern Yellow Pine(short leaf)
0660        Douglas Fir
0380        White Pine

As you can see Walnut is not much harder than Pine and actually softer than some Pines.

 

[nickao]

You know I could have lied and said  I did not know why I was banned, I did not do that. I can say I totally do not understand it as if I said that about anyone but Matthew I would not be restricted.

Me being restricted does not mean I am not suitable to help people. You insinuated I do not know my trade, well 46 posts or 38 posts does not give me any idea of your background so I really find it appalling you bring my expertise into question.

I also feel it is really strange to tell someone they post(help people) to much on a forum designed for exactly that.

Do not go offering unsafe techniques,if you do restricted or not I will call you on it. Because you could do it does not mean you should do it. Make a video and show a sure fire way to make cuts like that without getting kickback and then I will deem it safe, Just saying it helps no one. It is much better saying not to do it when something is suspect until a technique is clearly explained and can be done repetitively 99% of the time by 99% of the people before it is deemed safe.

I do not think that will happen using the TS saw free hand. If it does I will be the first to say it is okay to do it.

Matthew can always ban me, than you do not need read my posts at all.

 

[tvogel400]

????????

It is not unsafe to use the 55 "free hand" in fact do to the plunge mechanism it is probable the safest of all.

T-bone

 

[score0matic]

hey guys, here is moy 2 cents

1. The Saw is unwieldy with out its rail.  (This statement is from personal observations and also from what several posts before mine have stated  so while it is an opinion, it is an informed one. )  it may be unwieldy because we have come to expect how the saw handles with the rail and these expectations are not met when it is off.   Because it acts in unexpected ways  you are no longer in the same degree of control (of a live saw) that you might want to be.    The saw is a plunge cutting action where you push it down from the back to the front, this action is the opposite plunging action that most of us use when making plunge cuts with regular circ. saws.  Because the blade engages differently you have very different reactions...Kickback whit the festool , pulling down into the piece with a worm drive..different from what you expect is dangerous.  Any saw that reacts differently to common applications  (crosscutting 2x's) is dangerous.  but like firearms it's dangerous to those who are unfamiliar with it and how to properly engage it.

2. The saw is designed to operate with out the rail.  Reference the Guide notches, and the "stupid"    depth scale . 

So just like TEVI from Fiddler on the Roof   "You're  right...and ...You're right too. "  The man who is familiar with the saw  and how it acts when it is off the rail the saw is safe, No problem.  Some one who has never handled the saw off the rail, (even worse if he has  habits with regular circ saws in the framing world).  his first few encounters with the Fes can be super dangerous.  and needs to be warned of the danger.
Thanks Craig

 

[Tom the Remodeler]

I remodel houses for a living, and have pretty extensive experience with my TS55. My understanding is that the reason for the "off rail" depth measurement is for when you are, say, cutting flooring using the wall as a guide. I admit that I too have, from time to time, used the '55 free hand, and every single time I do it I promise myself that I'll never do it again. As far as I'm concerned, the saw simply isn't designed for cross-cutting 2x lumber. The few times I've done it I spent more time clamping squares and bracing materials than it would have taken to walk out to the driveway, grab my worm drive, and cross-cut the lumber.

So, here's my two cents:

Yes, the saw CAN be used to cut dimensional lumber off the rail. But, for all the fuss involved, you may as well be cross cutting your framing on a table saw. In the same way that, yes, I had tried to "rip" narrow stock with my SCMS because I was too lazy to grab my table saw or TS55. Sure, it works, but in my humble opinion I think it's a really bad idea. A Corvette is designed for a specific task. Sure it has a V8, but would you really want to use it to tow your work trailer around?

I don't want to tell anybody what to do, but I will say that, as one who has tried using the TS55 off-rail for cross-cutting, I personally always make a point to go out to the truck to grab a tool specifically designed to cross-cut dimensional lumber, whether that be a miter saw or worm drive saw, rather than trying to make do with my TS55 or table saw.

I wish all of you the best of luck, and stay safe out there!!!  ;D

 

[mastercabman]

I wonder if cutting a sheet of plywood free hand on a table saw is safer than using a plunge cut saw free hand? ??? ??? ???

 

[peter halle]

Hey Guys and Gals,

In the spur of the moment tools get used for all sorts of things, but let let's keep it real here.  Plunging any blade into wood has a reaction.  Every action has an opposite reaction.   Remember physics class.  How prepared for for it or think that you are is the issue.

Festool supplies a stop that can be attached to the rail if you want to plunge cut with their saws and use their saws.  Might that send up up a flair if you decide to go commando and use the saw without the rail?  They are warning you if you use the rail!  Without?  On your own.

In 2001 I was in the emergency room next to a guy who had used a chainsaw to cut plywood.  Saw kicked up and kicked his face.  I guess that the saw was capable of cutting plywood but why?

I was there because I cut the tip of my finger off with a drill - go figure.

Leave Nick alone.  He is right.  There have been other posts here regarding this.  Go search.

Respectfully,

Peter

 

[JeromeM]

1925         Merbau
1910         Jarrah
1820         Hickory
1860         Purpleheart
1820         Pecan
1725         Padauk     
1620         Wenge
1450         Hard Maple
1375         Australian Cypress   
1360         White Oak
1320         Ash
1300         American Beech
1290         Red Oak(Northern)
1260         Yellow Birch
1225         Heart Pine
1010         Black Walnut
1000         Teak
0950         Black Cherry
0870         Southern Yellow Pine (long leaf)
0690         Southern Yellow Pine(short leaf)
0660         Douglas Fir
0380         White Pine

As you can see Walnut is not much harder than Pine and actually softer than some Pines.

You missed the softest Hard wood  At 0100 Balsa and FWIW one of the harder soft woods  At 1600 is Yew

 

[tvogel400]

Gentlemen

Respectfully-I recognize that the 55 is at its' best on the rail and if I can or it makes sense I'm going to use the rail, but to state unequivocally that the ts55

cannot be used safely without the rail is wrong. I have stated it at least twice,on this thread, the  plunge  action with no lock makes it the safest hand held

saw ever!

Last weekend I was cutting pressure treated 2x8's on saw horses with a speed square in my left and ol' besty(my ts55) in my right and all I could think

about was how great the DC was, if you know what you are doing it's fine.

Peter- I would never plunge the saw without stops at two points of reference- a fence and a block clamped to it or the rail and the plunge stop- never.

Mastercabman-  no I don't think cutting ply  free hand with a table saw is safer than using a 55 "free hand"- I have never thought of cutting any sheet stock

without a fence.

This whole thing is pretty sad really, the festool ts 55 can be used without the rail safely- it certainly is not optimal- but it is not dangerous.

T-bone

 

[tvogel400]

Sorry I meant Betsy.

 

[nickao]

TVogel again just becasue you can do it does not make it right.

Now you are changing the rules.

Free hand is grabbing the saw and cutting like the original user said not setting up stops and messing around for ten minutes like you are saying now. You can not cut free hand cut off the stack like a regular saw safely. Grab a skill saw and cut, thats free hand, you just changed the entire scenario.,

Now you state oh stops in front and back. You are back tracking.

I give up. DO what ever the heck you want.

 

[Dave Ronyak]

If Festool did not intend that people would use their TS saws off a Guide Rail, why do they continue to post the cutting depth capacity of their saws in their catalogs and other literature?  I also note the parallel guide supplied by Festool is intended to be used without a Guide Rail.  I use circular saws with a hand held straight edge or a shop made cross cut guide without any problems.  For me, the key is to have the saw blade completely up to speed before entering the wood, and to ensure that the saw is advanced in a straight line.  I also agree with those who recommend not using a fine toothed blade for such cuts.

Dave R.

 

[nickao]

My dad says he uses it without a rail as well.

But Dave we are talking FREE HAND no one said using a guide or a parallel guide. The saw is squirrly as hell free hand. Please do not change the original posters intention.

The saw grab it and cut I can not get the darn thing to cut on a line and it kicks balc none of my worm drives kick back like that.

So again I think it is unsafe as I said I do not care what Festool says. With a guide and all these extra precautions is fine, but that is not free hand cutting it is replacing the rail.

It is the worst saw I have ever use free hand thats for sure. Like I said everyone can do as they want its not safe for me i do not do it nor recommenced it to anyone let alone a first timer. I have a little experience and i feel totally unconformable doing it safely.

That,s enough on this thread for me.

 

[erikfsn]

I've earned a living as a carpenter for six years, half on boats and half on houses.

I try to be safe in everything I do, but I've also taken a few chances here and there.

I've never tried to use my TS55 without any guide at all, but I have used it to cross cut douglas fir about a dozen times in the past year or so, using a speed square as a guide.

I haven't experienced kick back this way, but it is definitely on the dicey side of woodworking maneuvers. I would not recommend it to anyone.

I saw a horse race in the town square of a small town in Italy once and what struck me was the unexpected speed and violence. Power tool accidents are like that.

Erik

 

[nickao]

vteknical and erikfsn email me, I can not PM you.

Nick

 

[dirtydeeds]

the TS55 is designed primarily for sheet goods

plunge saws are not designed for framing and cross cutting lumber for formwork

use standard "skil saws" or worm drives for this work

 

[Tinker]

I only just ran across this conversation and only read the second page.
I periodically move my operation outside into the wide open spaces, especially when doing larger projects.
The first time i moved outside (since owning my ATF 55 and other Festoys) i decided to save time and energy by bringing only my ATF and speed square to cut some 2x lumber.  That was a bummer.  It took considerable trial & error to get the cuts even close. This was caused by the fact I could not see where the blade was going.  not even to start the cut.

The second problem noticed at about the same time was that I lacked any real positive control of the saw even if i started the cut with any degree of accuracy.  I really did not know where the saw was going, even with the speed square.  I surveyed my situation and decided rather than bring out a guide rail and table, or even a guide, with only a few cuts, it would be much quicker to just bring out my old and battered Milwaukee that had served me so well for so many moons under many, many trying conditions.

Even without the speed square as a guide for the Milwaukee, i was able to ge more accurate cuts, quickly, than I could do with the ATF without the guiderail.  I will not use the ATF without a guiderail or parallel edge guide any more.  Without either, it is just a dangerous piece of junk.  With either, it is a very accurate and, for most use, very fast precision tool.
Tinker

 

[dirtydeeds]

i do use the TS55 sometimes without the guide rail on sheet goods for rough breaking down

ive not had a problem

probably......... because i already found out not to use them for cross cutting framing timber

 

[Tinker]

Where I used it free hand was cutting 2x6 and 2x8 framing lumber.
I never tried freehand again with ATF on anything.  Not even sheet goods

At opposite end of experience:  Many times over the course of my experience as a mason contractor, I did use my Milwaukees as plunge saws.  That led to my first mistook with my ATF the very first time I made a cut with it.  When plunging with Milwaukee, you rest the toe of the saw plate right on the wood to be cut and raise the heel so the blade is clearing the wood.  Be sure you are lined up where you want to go and wait til blade full speed.  Then, lower blade into wood.  I did this hundreds of times when building forms or scaffolding with never any problems with binding or kickbacks.

When i set up my AFT, I lined up the guide rail to my line, rested toe of saw on rail and raised the heel up in the air as I had done so many times with my old Milwaukees.  I still have the scars across my guide bar to prove the fallacy of my action.  I am probably lucky the scars are not on me.

My second cut, and all thereafter have been made without further mishap due to such improper/foolish/mindless procedure.

Tinker