TS55 Kickback

Hey thanks everyone for your responses....not trying to dig any ditches with the TS55 just trying to get a cut made on the fly.  Next time I will be more careful.

Why is it that people assume anyone new to Festool must be a newby hobbyist?

 
kevin. we dont (most of us dont) assume anything

we give our opinions from our own standpoints

hopefully we make the standpoints clear

being a limey, i HAVE to assume nothing and make it clear
 
TVogel again just becasue you can do it does not make it right.

Now you are changing the rules.

Free hand is grabbing the saw and cutting like the original user said not setting up stops and messing around for ten minutes like you are saying now. You can not cut free hand cut off the stack like a regular saw safely. Grab a skill saw and cut, thats free hand, you just changed the entire scenario.,

Now you state oh stops in front and back. You are back tracking.

I give up. DO what ever the heck you want.
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No I am not changing any thing my commentary on this thread started with-

You can not use a Festool saw off the rail It is not for framing lumber at all, ever.
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Which is patently false, you keep putting words in my mouth and assigning motivations to me that I have never expressed- so stop it

But Dave we are talking FREE HAND no one said using a guide or a parallel guide. The saw is squirrly as hell free hand. Please do not change the original posters intention.
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I see this as talking out of both sides of your mouth.

Now who's changing what?

Don't ever use that square without the rail ever.
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This is where we started-

I can't fix typos, it should saw never use the SAW without the rail , not square.

Somebody with full posting rights needs to chime in as I can not believe something this dangerous and wrong is left for a restricted person to defend. I do not want to see anyone hurt, but I can not make full posts so I will leave it at that.
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You are very inconsistent - so now which is it, you should never use the saw with out a rail, or you should never use the saw free hand.

Frankly this is tiring -your rhetorical somersaults or shall I say shifting position make me less than interested in your opinion.

The saw can be used safely with out the rail you cannot prove otherwise- so now your argument is that  I'm using fences and blocks with clamps so I

am changing the game midstream argument is hoo-haw and you know it.

Let me clarify my position once and for all the only way a would free hand cut a sheet up ply with my55, would be in a situation that I somehow did not have

my rails with me or clamps( or screws for that matter) to make a fence. Having said that If I had to -I would cut it free hand and not be afraid to do so.

I'll swap safety Concerns with any one. I have trained several apprentices on most basic machines found in  the cabinet shop, and I am a Hard a@# when

it comes to safety. In fact I have been shop safety guy for years at a stretch.

In fact Nickao you remind me of art school students with 4 years of furnture classes coming to work in my shop telling me what is safe and what isn't-they

usually don't last to long.

So Nickao maybe you clairify your position with out equivocating this time.

T-bone

 
 
Yeah I will clarify.

As I said do as you like.

The Festool saws SUCK free hand, I go against my own dad on this.

If I am teaching NEVER use them free hand for 2 x lumber or free hand at all. Always use them on the rail, always said I do not care what others or Festool say. I have both saws and without the rail they are garbage and unsafe to me.

That's the end of it no need to drag it on, is there?

Please do not address me again on this topic you are wasting bandwidth my veiwpoint is Crystal clear.

 
Frankly the saw issue is decided -I won.

This more about character to me or shall I lacking of.

I have never seen any one so recklessly shift and slither in their position when confronted with reality.

I hope to never deal with you again- you shifting rational has the moral equivalency of lying- so good riddance.

T-bone

(looking for the ignore button)
 
I have not shifted at all its unsafe. I am shifting only one thing, I do not want to fight with you any longer.

Okay you won. I mean I did not think we were in a contest,. I am sorry but I have not changed my mind so I am not so sure you won anything.

I never thought about winning or losing, just protecting people fro getting hurt and in that respect I fear some may lose.

Now I am holding my hand out in friendship you can take it or leave it.
 
Kevin Stricker said:
Hey thanks everyone for your responses....not trying to dig any ditches with the TS55 just trying to get a cut made on the fly.  Next time I will be more careful.

Why is it that people assume anyone new to Festool must be a newby hobbyist?
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Kevin,i don't know why people assume that,but to answer your original post,the ts 55 is not design to cut 2x free hand.
It is a precision saw to be use with a rail to give you a clean straight cut.
As for safety,i have tried to cut 2x before and i have to say that i wont be doing it again.There is no way to lock the head ,you can't really see where you cutting and you have to be very careful when the saw finishes to cut since there is nothing to guide the foot of the saw it wants to spring back at you.
Beside,why do you think festool includes a guide rail when you buy the saw?             
 
A newbie on this forum is a newbie to Festool, not a newbie to woodworking. I did not mean to offend, but 99.9% of people that are new to Festools are new to track saws, which make you a newbie. I do not care if one is a 50 year carpenter if they have not used a track saw and are new to Festool they are newbies in terms of this forum and most of its discussions.

Again I apologize for any mix up I may have made.
 
Hello everyone, first time posting, just recently joined the forum as well.  I own a bunch of festools, the 55 was my first festool purchase and i couldn't be happier with the saw,  i have noticed that the best technique for off the rail cross cuts at least for me is to plunge the saw completely prior to engaging the stock and then it all goes smooth.
recently i was a Festool show in my local tool store and spoke with the rep in regards to the saw kicking back occasionally and it cutting slightly off the guide strip when engaging the cut in a hard wood (i was cutting slots for a vent in very hard oak 1" thick) The rep told me that the saw is slightly toed and the saw sometimes comes out of whack but not very commonly. He also said it is very important to use the proper blade.
So what I'm trying to say is that it is no problem to cut off rail, but is it worth the possibility to get it out of whack just to save a trip to the van to grab a regular saw?  would you use your $40 chisel to scrape thinset off a subfloor? You did pay $500 dollars + for the accuracy and precision of the tool.
 
This post Is Fun  :D

By the way i noticed that i use my jigsaw allot more  now that i don't keep my worm handy.

Craig
 
Q: What's the difference between a TS55, Tootle The Train, and Nickao?

A: Only one of them is funny when it goes off the rails.
 
L2theP said:
Hello everyone, first time posting, just recently joined the forum as well.  I own a bunch of festools, the 55 was my first festool purchase and i couldn't be happier with the saw,  i have noticed that the best technique for off the rail cross cuts at least for me is to plunge the saw completely prior to engaging the stock and then it all goes smooth.
recently i was a Festool show in my local tool store and spoke with the rep in regards to the saw kicking back occasionally and it cutting slightly off the guide strip when engaging the cut in a hard wood (i was cutting slots for a vent in very hard oak 1" thick) The rep told me that the saw is slightly toed and the saw sometimes comes out of whack but not very commonly. He also said it is very important to use the proper blade.
So what I'm trying to say is that it is no problem to cut off rail, but is it worth the possibility to get it out of whack just to save a trip to the van to grab a regular saw?  would you use your $40 chisel to scrape thinset off a subfloor? You did pay $500 dollars + for the accuracy and precision of the tool.
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Nice point about the toe-in on the plunge saws. I've been told (never checked it myself) that the saws are toed-in by the thickness of a business card over the length of the blade. Just another Fun Festool Fact...  ;D
 
i have just finished reading the first page of this thread, and to be honest i could not be bothered reading the second, there seems to be a lot of personal hostility directed at certain forum members.
i am not a big fan of professional tradesmen bashing each other, personally, i think it is bloody childish.

the point of the thread is to help a keen wood worker/ carpenter find a safe way of using his new festool toy.
i agree 100% with nickao that the safest way for a person who is learning how to use a tool most carpenters dont even know how to use, is with the guide rail.

i also agree with tvogel400, yes the saw can be used without a rail, but lets be honest here, if you had a person out on site with you, would you want him using your very expensive saw without the rail?
more than likely you would train him to use the rail and tell him to use a dropsaw or circular saw for all other cuts.

tvogel400, you say you have been working for 17 years, i have about the same amount of experience as you, i have tried cutting without the rail, i prefer to use it with the rails only.
you should also remember that everything you type here is free for everyone to see,  a lot of people who read your words may not have 17 years experience like you. a lot of people love working with wood but have no experience at all. you should think about trying to help these people, rather than throw childish insults at a fellow festoolian.

btw kevin, just use your festool saw with the rails mate.
buy a cheap circular saw for every other cut.

regards, justin.

 
i have just finished reading the first page of this thread, and to be honest i could not be bothered reading the second, there seems to be a lot of personal hostility directed at certain forum members.
i am not a big fan of professional tradesmen bashing each other, personally, i think it is bloody childish.
Click to expand...

you should also remember that everything you type here is free for everyone to see,  a lot of people who read your words may not have 17 years experience like you. a lot of people love working with wood but have no experience at all. you should think about trying to help these people, rather than throw childish insults at a fellow festoolian.
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I dare say most people would read the entire thread before  holding forth with such a well considered opinion.

Apparently you did not read down to post #6 where I said;

Kevin- first of all don't use the 48 tooth blade, I use the 28, and use the front of the foot to plunge the blade fully and then proceed with your cut.

Plunging into any thing free hand is no-no, OK. When plunging with one hand on the saw and one hand on a speed square you will almost always have a kick back.
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This thread started off being about whether the saw could be used off rail or not, which it plainly can, I made several posts that responsibly noted that the

saw is best on the rail but if you are in a situation where a rail won't work-don't be afraid to use it without the rail.

It then proceeded down the path of that T-bone guy's telling  the newbies to never use the rail and it's ok to work naked(hyperbole mine)- which I never

did. It was at this point I got really tired of Nickao's constantly evolving attack plan and called him on it.

But thanks for you "Opinion".

T-bone

 
I gave away my skill 77 about 2 weeks after getting my 55.

Please tell me how the ts55 is any more dangerous "free hand" than any other hand held circular saw out there.

I just don't see it -I do not see the ts 55 being any more dangerous off rail that any any other saw. When my old skill 77 kicked back out of a work piece there

would be that 20 deg arc that was not covered by the blade guard. Now when my ts55 kicks back out of a work piece the plunging mech brings the blade all

the way inside the housing and locks it in, please address this point. Has any one ever used the 16" makita beam saw- that thing is scary!

I move my kit probably 4 times a week, my experience has taught me that I hate moving tools. So I can ditch the old 77' yeah! I never liked those saws

anyway. 

My install kit includes 2 1400mm rails and one 800mm plus enough of those really expensive metal connectors to put them all together, so I would have

work hard to find a situation where use of the rail is inappropriate. Having said that  I have had several situations where the rail wouldn't work- so now

what stop working until I can go get another saw-no sorry not gonna happen.

As for the 55 being a replacement for a 77' your right, non-gided it's not that good- the blade's on the wrong side for righty's and it has a mushy feel

but unsafe-hardly.

As anyone who works with power tools and wants to keep their digits, one should only do things that they feel comfortable and competent doing.

I feel as though I am being portayed as  some Hun who is going to show up at all the newbies houses and take their rails and force them to go "free hand"

I have taken enough English to know that I have stated my case responsibly and clearly-there seems to be a few of you who insist misinterpreting and/or

ignoring entire blocks of text-to try and back up your position that use of the 55 without the rail is verboten.

In fact Nickao go back and read your replies #20 and #22 here is a case where you are being patently dishonest or arguing with two different people-

I don't think behavior like this has any place in this forum-

T-bone 
 
I suspect it would be safe to conclude that using the TS55 (or TS75) off the rails is controversial, at best.  Personally, I don't - I use a non-plunging circular saw for those cuts.  I find it awkward to hold the TS55 in a plunged position and guide it using one hand, even on the rail.  Perhaps that is the reason the saw is equipped with two handles.  For sure, you don't want to start an off-rail cut until the blade is fully plunged and up to speed.

Whether the saw is "designed" or "not designed" for use off the rail, I would look to Festool for the answer to that question.  In reviewing the TS55 manual, I cannot find anything specific that says either do or do not not use the saw to cut off the rail.  All of the photos in the manual show the saw being used with two hands, one on each handle.
 
Only one thing .  Tvogal440 stated.      "Now when my ts55 kicks back out of a work piece the plunging mech brings the blade all the way inside the housing and locks it in, please address this point. " 

I will address this point.    Fact:  The Ts55 does not lock a moving blade in its housing ----- until the trigger and thumb switches are let go.  I too was under this misconception until this thread. I was about to type the same thing Notion but went out and checked first.  as long as your finger is on the switches it will plunge.

Thanks Craig
 
  My initial response to the "rail only" idea was a bit cowboy carpenter.....but thinking about it some more and reading all of the replies have changed my mind.  Given the force of the kickback (she bucks hard for being so small) and the fact that there is no way you are going to get your finger off the trigger before the saw hits you.  I always try to minimize my kit as I do a lot of small jobs, but until I get a good jigsaw  I think I will keep my Bosch circ. saw handy.

Again, thank you all for your replies.
 
I consider myself an experienced amateur, having worked with powered hand tools for >35 years, and I still have all my fingers.  I also find that my 7 1/4 inch Skillsaw (not a Model 77 wormdrive) works better when I use it with a guide such as a piece of scrap lumber or a carpenters square, and with both hands on the saw.  When cross cutting a lot of SYP rebuilding a deck, I found that I frequently created kickback if I did not use a simple 90 degree cross cut guide constructed from a couple of pieces of scrap.  My kickback experiences likely have more to do with the fact that I am left-handed and nearly all these tools are designed for right handed people.  (My old Craftsman all metal case saw was an exception with excellently placed handles for both hands and with the blade on the left; I dearly regret not buying a new armature for it when I fried it cutting some stone.)  Another factor that likely reduces the probability of kickback with a common 7 1/4 inch saw is that the blade cuts a relatively coarse (wide) kerf compared to the thickness of the body of the blade, thus enabling more angular misalignment of the saw as it is pushed through the stock being cut without kickback compared to using most Festool blades on a TS 55 or TS 75.  Also, my Skillsaw and Craftsman circular saw were designed so that the arbor nut/washer acts like a slip clutch if tightened to the recommended torque.  In contrast, the TS 55 secures the blade against slippage and thus produces a much greater kickback force when the blade is suddenly jammed, whether due to plunging or pushing the saw forward into the workpiece.

I don't see why Festool couldn't do a little re-engineering of this aspect of the TS 55 and offer a replacement arbor nut assembly.  My guesses are (1) they don't see any need and (2) their USA lawyers will tell them that doing so will be taken by some USA customers and trial attorneys as an admission of a safety-related defect in the earlier (the current) design.  Inserting a composite washer of the right material could create friction in the right range to allow the blade to slip when a predetermined torque level is exceeded, i.e. an overload clutch.  We used to do that regularly on mill stand rolls to prevent them from self-destructing or preventing them from being torn away from their mountings.  Ditto on many other driveline mechanisms to dampen spike loads and potentially damaging vibrations.  For you engineers in FOG, the formal term for this is Colomb damping.

Dave R.
 
Dave Ronyak said:
I don't see why Festool couldn't do a little re-engineering of this aspect of the TS 55 and offer a replacement arbor nut assembly.  My guesses are (1) they don't see any need and (2) their USA lawyers will tell them that doing so will be taken by some USA customers and trial attorneys as an admission of a safety-related defect in the earlier (the current) design.  Inserting a composite washer of the right material could create friction in the right range to allow the blade to slip when a predetermined torque level is exceeded, i.e. an overload clutch.  We used to do that regularly on mill stand rolls to prevent them from self-destructing or preventing them from being torn away from their mountings.  Ditto on many other driveline mechanisms to dampen spike loads and potentially damaging vibrations.  For you engineers in FOG, the formal term for this is Colomb damping.

Dave R.
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With spike loads the soft start prevents one at startup and as the TS's are designed to be primarily used on a guide rail hence no angular misalignment. Also there is an accessory stop that also prevents kickback when plunging used on a rail. I can see no point at all in Festool making the kind of arbour nut you suggest.

But of course if you want to design and construct one then you could offer them as an accessory however I don't think you would find many buyers. :(
 
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