TSC 55 KEB vs Milwaukee M18 Tracksaw

[Bencan]

I don't get the whole "lack of power" thing mentioned, I've been using Festo/Festool tools extensively for over 40 years and don't recall a single occasion when I had any form of under powered tools.

I have also had a great number of very grunty and powerful tools over the years that certainly were powerful, but also very noisy, cumbersome, as un-ergonomic as is possible, and gave a crappy finish is some cases.

The TR-12 is a great router, but it doesn't hold a candle in anyway to the OF2200, or even the OF1400 IMHO, except maybe for raw power.

Interesting that we're deviating to other tools, that we may have similar or different opinions. This post was on 2 saw's performance & power... which is not a new subject for Festool, they've been quipped multiple times for low performance / power on saws.
Festool has held a premium position for years, if they're getting a strong challenge or beaten then that's good for everyone... it stimulates design & competition in a productive way. 

As mentioned above, it's ergonomics I personally find more fitting to my hand & physical size. We haven't mentioned noise yet... they make different motor / saw tones. The Festool is higher pitched, the Milwaukee is lower pitched... I find higher pitch louder to my ears.

Multiple Finish Carpenters (several have YouTube Channels) that were dedicated to Festool Track saws and have multiple Festool products, have openly expressed the Milwaukee provides them better track saw performance. They state the Festool 55 is a great track saw... but the Milwaukee jumped ahead and they'll be using the Milwaukee going forward.

Those reviews & expressions stimulated me to look into the Milwaukee, and if openly examined... it surprises ya.

I don’t doubt Milwaukee is a great saw, I can’t stand the YouTube review strategy. I’m incredibly skeptical when I see companies using their “influencers”

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[jeh]

Never even seen an M18 tracksaw in person but a comparison of “cutting power” would have to include exactly equivalent blades and batteries. Might not be easy to achieve.

A comparison of handling while subjective would still be valid even if the battery and blade specs didn’t match. Looking forward to reading what you come up with.

I'd add weight to your requirements. Looking at both websites there is close to 1.25lbs difference. Of course the spec sheets on both websites do list with/without batteries. I don't use either of these having switched to Mafell, but the Milwaukee is of interest as my on-site tools (mostly Milwaukee) are different from my in shop tools. Completely avoids caring if someone borrows a tool as most of the on-site workers I meet could care less about taking care of a tool. With the Milwaukee and Dewalt, some of the tools are cheap enough to be disposable. The track saw, mitre saws, and some other tools are the exception to disposable.

 

[six-point socket II]

To the best of my knowledge, Milwaukee tends to "push the limits" of their battery packs and electronics. Then you have Bosch who are pretty, shall we say "conservative" in that regard. I have no idea where Festool comes in.

So it's quite possible that the user will experience "more power" from a Milwaukee tool. The question that remains is at what price, speaking of tool and battery lifetime. That said, I haven't heard about Milwaukee tools and batteries falling like dead flies. So they must be getting at least something right in that regard.

And that would really be the interesting question to me. Longevity vs. extra power vs. resulting wear and tear. And then a user can decide what he favors/ what fits his needs best. (Of course among all the other stuff that should come first: quality of cut, dust extraction, system integration, (...).)

Kind regards,
Oliver

 

[Jim_in_PA]

Can the Milwaukee use Festool track?

Yes, and vice versa. And Makita and Mafele.  But the M track has a minor difference that allows the M18 saw to "stick" to the track for non-flat applications.
-----

The M18 saw is a good addition to the market, especially for contractors who have a "virtual plethora" of M18 tools in their trailers/trucks. I'm a "Festoolie" through and through, but can absolutely appreciate the value of having a minimum number of battery systems to deal with for their businesses, and M has one of the broadest lines of battery operated tools on the market.

 

[dougcjohn]

Can the Milwaukee use Festool track?

Yep, no issues. Can use Festool, Makita, Milwaukee. Many of the Carpenters are getting Milwaukee and retaining all there Festool tracks. I personally wanted to have use of the anti-tip feature so I aquired Milwaukee tracks: 2x 55, and a 31.

 

[dougcjohn]

Wait so they don't have anything on the Milwaukee side to integrate with for dust extraction? If you're going to use a festool vac I think you'd be using a festool saw (for years now) as well as take advantage of BT batteries.

I'm really curious how it cuts melamine or veneered ply in a single pass. I can do two passes with any saw.

Also no anti-kickback at all?

One platform is what you're suggesting? Then it's certainly not Festool, they lack multiple tools compared to other Brands. I'm certainly not a 1 Brand, 1 Battery Platform User... I'm probably on 4 platforms & 1 Primary in Tools, then anther platform for Yard Equipment.

Dust Extraction... the 48 AC and the Mikita AC are equal in performance, the Festool provides a BT Module for Hose end and has a cleaner look when packed up. The BT batteries are a wonderful feature, although isn't a determining feature when a BT button sits next to saw, sander, planer, router, etc.

Kick back - like most saws, it does has a riving knife. Personally, if material are managed correctly kickback shouldn't occur and (knock on wood) I haven't had a kickback on table saw, circular or track.

Surface cut on fragile material is more blade, prep and technique, not saw. If double pass wasn't the suggested norm, Festool wouldn't be pushing it on their new 60 as a totally seperate mini blade in Ft of main blade. They both have anti-splinter shields that drop down to material.

so if you have a Milwaukee vacuum you need to buy another- Makita or Festool to pair it with a Milwaukee track saw, interesting.

apples to apples out of the box I want to see how the melamine cut compares single pass. if this saw requires two passes to match single festool pass that says a lot.

mind if I ask if you are hired by, sponsored, partnered, affiliated, etc. with Milwaukee in any way?

First, I don't have a Milwaukee Vacuum... have a Festool and it's a Great Dust Vac. I made the statement I wasn't One Branded.
Regarding cut... we all know that the "cut quality" on any material comes down to blade & technique more than Saw. A motor spinning a blade at given RPM is duplicatable on any saw: track, table, circular, worm, left or right hand. The blade and how the blade is used determines the quality of cut. Qualifying it's all quality saws, I'm not introducing low grade, loose, poor quality.

The 2nd cut wasn't introduced by the Milwaukee track saw... it was a common request in User Groups. It's why Festool has added a Scoring mini-blade on their new 60 saw. How the Milwaukee cuts on 1 pass in comparison to Festool 55, I'm not certain but highly confident it'll be practically identical if proper blade is applied for both. In addition, to the blades... in short timeframe you'll likely see a lot of quality 3rd party blades for the Milwaukee increasing the options to apply.

You ask a question I assumed would occur simple because I'm introducing a "Question or Thought to Ponder that Brand Protection rallies against". Question: Am I a Milwaukee Rep or some shadow motivator... not hardly! I'm an Ole' Fart Guy above 65, learned long ago to evaluate and apply the best tool that I can "rationalize for my usage". I've seen so many Brands at the top that become slow to develop in Tools, Photography, Audio, etc.  I posted this Post to see if anyone was pondering or noticing the same.

I've said for a long time... Milwaukee makes the best Nailers since their Gen2. Other than Nailers, I don't own many Milwaukee tools. I'm primarily a DeWalt Owner... does Milwaukee have better Drivers, Drills, Cutters, Routers, and Sanders than DeWalt... many would say Yes... I'm happy with my DeWalt, they accurately provide the tools I NEED and Battery Platform is Great.

 

[dougcjohn]

I don't get the whole "lack of power" thing mentioned, I've been using Festo/Festool tools extensively for over 40 years and don't recall a single occasion when I had any form of under powered tools.

I have also had a great number of very grunty and powerful tools over the years that certainly were powerful, but also very noisy, cumbersome, as un-ergonomic as is possible, and gave a crappy finish is some cases.

The TR-12 is a great router, but it doesn't hold a candle in anyway to the OF2200, or even the OF1400 IMHO, except maybe for raw power.

Interesting that we're deviating to other tools, that we may have similar or different opinions. This post was on 2 saw's performance & power... which is not a new subject for Festool, they've been quipped multiple times for low performance / power on saws.
Festool has held a premium position for years, if they're getting a strong challenge or beaten then that's good for everyone... it stimulates design & competition in a productive way. 

As mentioned above, it's ergonomics I personally find more fitting to my hand & physical size. We haven't mentioned noise yet... they make different motor / saw tones. The Festool is higher pitched, the Milwaukee is lower pitched... I find higher pitch louder to my ears.

Multiple Finish Carpenters (several have YouTube Channels) that were dedicated to Festool Track saws and have multiple Festool products, have openly expressed the Milwaukee provides them better track saw performance. They state the Festool 55 is a great track saw... but the Milwaukee jumped ahead and they'll be using the Milwaukee going forward.

Those reviews & expressions stimulated me to look into the Milwaukee, and if openly examined... it surprises ya.

I don’t doubt Milwaukee is a great saw, I can’t stand the YouTube review strategy. I’m incredibly skeptical when I see companies using their “influencers”

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Right there with ya! I don't like several of them... I look for the Working Guy or ones that compare with valid looking data. Then IF interested, I'll purchase and do my own testing... in my viewpoint, that's the purpose of most company's 30 day satisfaction period. Evaluate if it's a good fit for your needs or it's better than what you're currently using & purchase it. Word of Mouth is the best advertisment.

 

[dougcjohn]

Can the Milwaukee use Festool track?

Yes, and vice versa. And Makita and Mafele.  But the M track has a minor difference that allows the M18 saw to "stick" to the track for non-flat applications.
-----

The M18 saw is a good addition to the market, especially for contractors who have a "virtual plethora" of M18 tools in their trailers/trucks. I'm a "Festoolie" through and through, but can absolutely appreciate the value of having a minimum number of battery systems to deal with for their businesses, and M has one of the broadest lines of battery operated tools on the market.

Spot on... several brands... essentially any track Makita used in past, Milwaukee can use. 
I'd agree, Trailers with 1 or 2 battery platforms improves several aspects.
That's a driving force for busy Carpenters that quickly justify purchases based on ROI.

In addition, Nothing so far has been shown "better" on the Festool... other than BT battery sync and that is a wonderful feature!
The Kickback circuitry and the Armature lock when in Blade change mode are nice but not holding points in my opinion.
Overall, Quality of "product produced" by the tool isn't reduced, and a few gains for some are valid points.
For me, cutting a 2" Hardwood was a nice bump, anti-tip nice bump, 1 battery nice bump, etc.

 

[dougcjohn]

Never even seen an M18 tracksaw in person but a comparison of “cutting power” would have to include exactly equivalent blades and batteries. Might not be easy to achieve.

A comparison of handling while subjective would still be valid even if the battery and blade specs didn’t match. Looking forward to reading what you come up with.

I'd add weight to your requirements. Looking at both websites there is close to 1.25lbs difference. Of course the spec sheets on both websites do list with/without batteries. I don't use either of these having switched to Mafell, but the Milwaukee is of interest as my on-site tools (mostly Milwaukee) are different from my in shop tools. Completely avoids caring if someone borrows a tool as most of the on-site workers I meet could care less about taking care of a tool. With the Milwaukee and Dewalt, some of the tools are cheap enough to be disposable. The track saw, mitre saws, and some other tools are the exception to disposable.

Correct... check Post 15 above, I mentioned both weight & ergonomics.
You have a great point... Shop vs Onsite platforms.
LOL...some Milwaukee & DeWalt tools are low cost... but still frustrating if comes up missing or loaner breaks!
I bow to your Mafell, nice saw! 

 

[dougcjohn]

To the best of my knowledge, Milwaukee tends to "push the limits" of their battery packs and electronics. Then you have Bosch who are pretty, shall we say "conservative" in that regard. I have no idea where Festool comes in.

So it's quite possible that the user will experience "more power" from a Milwaukee tool. The question that remains is at what price, speaking of tool and battery lifetime. That said, I haven't heard about Milwaukee tools and batteries falling like dead flies. So they must be getting at least something right in that regard.

And that would really be the interesting question to me. Longevity vs. extra power vs. resulting wear and tear. And then a user can decide what he favors/ what fits his needs best. (Of course among all the other stuff that should come first: quality of cut, dust extraction, system integration, (...).)

Kind regards,
Oliver

You're on track (no pun intended) with one major variable of Power being the battery applied. Baring manufacturing defects... battery failure is strongly associated to Heat of internal battery cell compound. This applies to sUAV's (Drone) too... we think batteries in tools is expensive... large platform drone batteries are $400-1200 each and require 2 to 6 per flight. The draw of amperage equates to heat, the higher heat is normally due to higher amp draw. In a easy comparison... DeWalts 60v vs Milwaukee 18v... tool may perform similar but 60v battery has lower amp draw, less heat on motors, battery, circuits & wiring compared to 18v and high Amp draw. Rational is higher volt hardware will last longer due to less heat and heat related stress.

All Brands have had defective batteries that are bad out of box to failing quickly in use. That's a very low percentage for all Brands.

As mentioned Milwaukee out of box was 6XC... not low and not high class battery; XC stands for Extended Capacity.  The batteries are getting better on all Brands, even Harbor Freight's newer tools & batteries are good performers compared to 2 yrs ago.  The new "Power Stack" Battery from DeWalt is great... similar to Flex Batteries. Incidentally, in severe cold... several construction workers: Concrete cutting, Grinders, etc. Have mentioned to me that only Flex & DeWalts Stack batteries will properly Charge in severe cold. Many have moved to Flex saws for Cold work.

Regarding Festool & Milwaukee on this informal test:
Festool was the Airstream 5.2 Ah Battery, that includes an internal cooling duct. Milwaukee was a 6Ah XC battery. A dual battery setup that retains battery voltage is a parallel configuration: voltage remains 18 an amperage available doubles.

My Test assumption: Festool would remain cool, Milwaukee would overheat. Taking batteries to exhaustion, placing them on chargers the Festool required 20 minutes to "Cool Down" before charging would begin. The Milwaukee began charging immediately and felt luke warm to touch.  I've personally seen Milwaukee, DeWalt and Ryobi Batteries require a 15-30 minute cool down when stressed using other tools. That indicates to me the Milwaukee wasn't overly stressed, even though it continued to run & cut on higher loads the Festool stalled.

Battery life is mainly 3 variables: 1) Batteries Compound Age and decay in time, even sitting on shelf not used. 2) Battery compound has a given number of cycles of charge before decay becomes substantial. 3) Heat of Compound and recharging when Hot increases the rate of compound decay.

In a brief: The cooler a battery runs during usage, and the inner compound temp when charging are the 2 main factors that determine Battery Life. I normally cycle my batteries... I 'normally' don't Re-charge a battery after use, I let it fully cool... 1-2 hours.

 

[six-point socket II]

Since when do Festool Airstream batteries include a fan? It's the charger that creates the "airstream" via fan.

That aside, if you feel the Milwaukee is the better deal for you, go with it.

Kind regards,
Oliver

 

[promark747]

The Milwaukee rides nicely on the Festool track, with the only minor downside being the Milwaukee anti-tip swivel tab will not work (the Milwaukee track has a special groove for that).

As a happy TS55 (corded) owner for many years, I bought the Milwaukee because I wanted to go cordless and I have a ton of M18 batteries for other tools.  The only cordless Festool tools I have are T12 drills, lights, and Carvex -- so I have no 18v.

So far I am happy with the Milwaukee, but I probably would have been just as happy with the TSC.

 

[dougcjohn]

Since when do Festool Airstream batteries include a fan? It's the charger that creates the "airstream" via fan.

That aside, if you feel the Milwaukee is the better deal for you, go with it.

Kind regards,
Oliver

That's my bad... I meant to say "cooling duct". When I examined the batteries, I noticed looking down the vent (cooling duct) and looked like a small fan was down in the battery. I don't have an Airstream now, unable to verify what I mistaken for a fan.

 

[dougcjohn]

The Milwaukee rides nicely on the Festool track, with the only minor downside being the Milwaukee anti-tip swivel tab will not work (the Milwaukee track has a special groove for that).

As a happy TS55 (corded) owner for many years, I bought the Milwaukee because I wanted to go cordless and I have a ton of M18 batteries for other tools.  The only cordless Festool tools I have are T12 drills, lights, and Carvex -- so I have no 18v.

So far I am happy with the Milwaukee, but I probably would have been just as happy with the TSC.

Nice to hear!
I'd agree, for most work either battery powered track saw would work nicely.
Be interested in your thoughts after some usage.

 

[Cheese]

The price of the Milwaukee surprised me, $639 at Home Depot with 1 battery, a charger, a dust bag and a Packout. That's right up there.

Also noticed the Milwaukee blade has a 1.3 mm plate with a 1.6 mm kerf while Festool uses a 1.2 mm plate with a 1.8 mm kerf.
I wonder if they can be resharpened...maybe not? Maybe they're considered disposable?

The blades are dirt cheap compared to Festool, $35 for a 40 tooth blade vs $84 for Festool while the fiber cement blade is $90 vs $145.

 

[dougcjohn]

The price of the Milwaukee surprised me, $639 at Home Depot with 1 battery, a charger, a dust bag and a Packout. That's right up there.

Also noticed the Milwaukee blade has a 1.3 mm plate with a 1.6 mm kerf while Festool uses a 1.2 mm plate with a 1.8 mm kerf.

The blades are dirt cheap compared to Festool, $35 for a 40 tooth blade vs $84 for Festool while the fiber cement blade is $90 vs $145. I wonder if they can be resharpened...maybe not? Maybe they're considered disposable?

Great info on blades and cost. I didn’t realize kerf’s were different and that Milwaukee was thinner at 1.6mm.

 

[NiteWalkerGR]

The price of the Milwaukee surprised me, $639 at Home Depot with 1 battery, a charger, a dust bag and a Packout. That's right up there.

That's pretty irritating to me; when announced, the price was $539 for that kit. $639 is a pretty bad deal for that kit.

 

[Cheese]

Great info on blades and cost. I didn’t realize kerf’s were different and that Milwaukee was thinner at 1.6mm.

I like the Milwaukee's thicker plate with the thinner kerf but just wonder how that may impact sharpening. With only .15 mm of carbide overhang any chips probably precludes the blade from being resharpened.

 

[squall_line]

The price of the Milwaukee surprised me, $639 at Home Depot with 1 battery, a charger, a dust bag and a Packout. That's right up there.

Also noticed the Milwaukee blade has a 1.3 mm plate with a 1.6 mm kerf while Festool uses a 1.2 mm plate with a 1.8 mm kerf.

The blades are dirt cheap compared to Festool, $35 for a 40 tooth blade vs $84 for Festool while the fiber cement blade is $90 vs $145. I wonder if they can be resharpened...maybe not? Maybe they're considered disposable?

Great info on blades and cost. I didn’t realize kerf’s were different and that Milwaukee was thinner at 1.6mm.

That also explains the "better power" from the Milwaukee.  Longer runtime and greater perceived power are among the reasons that Festool has outright stated as why they took the TS 55 from a 2.2mm kerf to a 1.8mm kerf.

 

[SilviaS7]

Milwaukee makes some great tools, I have some.  They also have the most breadth to their catalog of offerings compared to other power tools you can buy in any big box home store or hardware store.  I also think their tools perform well under stress, as they're designed for folks that Milwaukee assumes will abuse the tool.  Which is great for the market they go after.  I don't think Festool is competing in the same market as Milwaukee.  Like, Festool tools may not be the most powerful, but they have the right amount of power for their application to make the operation just feel good.  I like to think it's finesse, they have found the exact sweet spot they want to be in for that particular tool.  I recently bought a CXS and I feel like this tool embodies that - it isn't the most powerful compact drill-driver, but man it just seems to do the job better than the others.  The CT dust extractors don't necessarily have the highest CFM or most powerful suction, but they have the right amount to be perfect at what they do.  The ETS EC sanders aren't the most powerful, but they feel amazing to use and complete the work quicker, without me feeling like my arm is going to vibrate into another dimension.  It's a fair criticism to say the latest TSC is less powerful than the Milwaukee, but I think for most folks who are into Festool that won't necessarily matter.  If you prefer the Milwaukee to the Festool due to the power difference, there's nothing wrong with that.  I just don't think it will matter long term unless Festool never updates the TSC, which is super unlikely.