TSO MFT Fence: Perfectly Flawed

[sansbury]

I recently purchased one of TSO's MFT fence setups, in the 900mm length. This came shortly after finishing my first project using their parallel guide system, which fulfilled almost every* desire I could have had and got me really hopped up on the idea of replacing measurements on the material with settings on the tool.

I set the fence up calibrating the measurements using the English scale, and did some test checks, and found something that didn't seem right: If I calibrated it so that 12" on the scale gave me 12 on the material, then switched to 300mm, the resulting cut would be about 1mm off. I re-calibrated it using the Metric scale, and this time the English scale was off by about the same amount. The scales seemed individually accurate, but not quite aligned with each other.

I took some pictures and sent a message to TSO support, and they replied (very quickly!) that this was a known issue, that I should stick to one scale or the other, and that I have 60 days to return for a refund if I wanted. They also said they'd share my feedback with the engineering team. At this point I am hoping that somebody in TSO will look at this and say "manufacturing defect," and get me a fence where the scales line up with each other. I really like the idea of it, and in all other respects it feels like the quality I've come to expect from TSO. As it is, I am moving towards favoring metric for all my precision wood working, so I might be able to live with it as it is.

But I am struggling to see this as anything other than a defect or a very, very questionable cost-saving choice. I'd assume that both scales are engraved on a CNC laser in a single setup, but maybe there's two setups that create the opportunity for error.

The reason why I spend the premium for Festool is that their products waste far less of my time because I don't need to work around them. The TSO parallel guides lived up to and even exceeded this standard as they didn't force me to choose one measurement system. By that measure this fence is close, but 1mm short of a cigar. I will be interested to see if they decide this is a defective product or if this is as good as it gets.

* I say "almost" because I don't care for how they handle thin rips, but I don't really consider that a TSO shortcoming. Doing 4" rips on a 6" board using an 8" track just isn't ideal. I am tempted to fab up a reversible stop that could be used backwards, i.e. to slice 4" off the end of a large sheet of plywood. Maybe a winter project for the machine shop when I am a little less busy...

 

[Dr. P. Venkman]

But I am struggling to see this as anything other than a defect or a very, very questionable cost-saving choice.

I think that’s a defect. They’re clearly selling it as a dual scale fence, and the scales are slightly out of alignment - that makes it defective. That they said it’s a known issue seems to indicate they agree.

I guess the response to such a defect will vary by company. It sounds like they’ve taken the position that people should be satisfied with recalibrating every time they need to switch scales. That feels like the cost-saving part to me.

My guess: they intend for the next run of these fences to be accurate, but plan to sell however many defective ones they’ve already got. Some people would consider that completely unacceptable, and I would guess some wouldn’t be bothered at all.

I don’t find it wholly unreasonable for a small company to try to make some use of a slightly defective batch of product (it’s not like they’re bent or don’t work at all), but selling them at full price without mentioning the defect feels somewhat deceptive.

It might be kind of a hard defect to communicate clearly in a product description, but I think a better approach would have been to sell them as seconds and have a “We screwed up!” sale: “25% off for a dual scale fence that functions at 100% if you only need one scale at a time!”

 

[Cheese]

Another thing to consider is that I'm sure there are a lot of TSO customers that don't speak metric or don't speak imperial. It seems the FOG group tends to speak both languages but that's probably not the common case. So, throwing out good product is probably not a realistic alternative if it was a large production run. I'm sure TSO will correct the issue on the next production run as they are obviously aware of the situation.

 

[Crazyraceguy]

I see it as basically a non-issue. It is "dual scale", not simultaneous. If it had been offered as either, where you have to choose, some people would not be happy with that either.
Like @Cheese said, this is probably a fairly unique group. We have people who use one or the other, but how many use both?

 

[Dr. P. Venkman]

@Cheese and @Crazyraceguy, I think you’re both right.

I might still suggest it would be best to warn people to calibrate with the scale they plan to use, but I think you’re right that it’s a non issue for the vast majority of users.

 

[luvmytoolz]

We have people who use one or the other, but how many use both?

I speak fairly fluent imperial and will often mix it with metric, especially when talking sheet or board sizes as I've found a lot of people struggle to visualise 2440mm x 1220mm as a size, but I will never actually measure or mark in imperial myself. Only ever metric. So when I finally get the TSO fence, it'll be just fine for me.

 

[Crazyraceguy]

@Cheese and @Crazyraceguy, I think you’re both right.

I might still suggest it would be best to warn people to calibrate with the scale they plan to use, but I think you’re right that it’s a non issue for the vast majority of users.

Yes, but I think that most people would instinctively do that?
You have to calibrate it anyway, so, you pick your preferred scale and 90% of people never look back.
(statistics made up on the spot )

I'll have to say though, that mine was closer than 1/64" over 48", right out of the box. Probably closer to 1/2 that, but many people's eyes roll back in their head at fractions that small. A whole lot of tape measures are not that accurate anyway.

 

[Crazyraceguy]

I speak fairly fluent imperial and will often mix it with metric, especially when talking sheet or board sizes as I've found a lot of people struggle to visualise 2440mm x 1220mm as a size, but I will never actually measure or mark in imperial myself. Only ever metric. So when I finally get the TSO fence, it'll be just fine for me.

I really wonder why "you guys" (no offense) I mean Oz, UK, etc. always refer to sheet sizes by the length first?
I'm not saying either is "right" or "better" I just wonder why?
In the US, we would say 4' x 8' (width, length)
The metric seems to always come out to 2440mm x 1220mm? (length, width)
It just seems odd to me. Why stick to "converted" sizes? why not 2500mm x 2250mm? or 3000mm x 1500mm? (3m x 1.5m)
Does the US have such an influence over the world, that the product size stays the same, even if the unit of measure to describe it changes?

 

[luvmytoolz]

@Crazyraceguy So far as sheet and timber sizes as well really, it's pretty much always been the unwritten standard that you go from the largest dimension to the smallest. Even when ordering online that's how the bulk appear unless maybe the supplier is trying to categorise different sizes with one common thickness for some products. Never really though about it to be honest.

In almost all trades here you still need to be aware of and understand imperial, as even when it's specified in metric, the actual size is almost always derived from imperial measurements.

However, a lot of the Asian supplied sheet goods, like aluminium signage, etc, tend to come in metric sizes 2000 x 1200, 3000 x 1500, etc.

 

[Crazyraceguy]

@Crazyraceguy So far as sheet and timber sizes as well really, it's pretty much always been the unwritten standard that you go from the largest dimension to the smallest. Even when ordering online that's how the bulk appear unless maybe the supplier is trying to categorise different sizes with one common thickness for some products. Never really though about it to be honest.

In almost all trades here you still need to be aware of and understand imperial, as even when it's specified in metric, the actual size is almost always derived from imperial measurements.

However, a lot of the Asian supplied sheet goods, like aluminium signage, etc, tend to come in metric sizes 2000 x 1200, 3000 x 1500, etc.

See, we do it to specify grain direction. A piece of plywood cut to 18" x 24" would look very different to 24" x 18"
The grain runs along the length of the second number.

 

[luvmytoolz]

See, we do it to specify grain direction. A piece of plywood cut to 18" x 24" would look very different to 24" x 18"
The grain runs along the length of the second number.

Yes sorry, KD timber and slabs are usually width then thickness then length.

 

[Michael Kellough]

See, we do it to specify grain direction. A piece of plywood cut to 18" x 24" would look very different to 24" x 18"
The grain runs along the length of the second number.

The bias in the US is not just about grain direction. If you order a block of watercolor paper form an art supply store the paper will be listed as 18 x 24. No grain involved just a choice of textures.

 

[Michael Kellough]

I understand the desire to have an accurate dual scale. I’d like to directly read either Imperial or metric at the same time with no additional fuss.

Apparently it’s difficult to manufacture such a scale so it’s very fair that TSO is offering a long return period for this tool.

I wonder if you could modify the curser to read both scales correctly?

 

[sansbury]

Apparently it’s difficult to manufacture such a scale so it’s very fair that TSO is offering a long return period for this tool.

I would think it’s just one setup on a CNC laser table and you could engrave it in as many scales as you want? But I don’t know exactly how TSO does it….

 

[smorgasbord]

I have a Wixey DRO on my tablesaw. When I first got it, I found that setting up for metric and switching to Imperial would result in wild inaccuracies, and vice-versa as well. I contacted Wixey, who acknowledged the issue and sent me a new (reprogrammed) unit.

That said, I have a fancy miter gauge fence on my cross-cut sled that has both Metric and Imperial scales. But, the way you have to setup the pointer requires choosing one or the other - it doesn't read both at the same time. If the TSO fence reads out both metric and imperial simultaneously, they NEED to be aligned with each other. I'd get a refund and look elsewhere: a lot of companies make MFT-compatible fences (Dashboard, UJK Park, Hongdui, Benchdogs, etc.).