"TSO Products Presents the Next Generation Guide Rail Square"
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HarveyWildes
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Seems very much like just fine tuning the original. The angle iron is another fine tune, but it fits the old models if I read the description correctly, which is nice. I do have some questions:
* The most interesting comment was that there will be more accessories coming - maybe a variable angle accessory that isn't as prone to moving as the Festool one?
* If the angle fits the old squares, can we also expect the yet-to-be-announced accessories to also fit the old squares?
* It doesn't look like the model numbers have changed. Is anything printed on the square to indicate what model you have?
* Has TSO worked with their resellers to upgrade reseller stock in time for this announcement? Can I order from anyone and be confident that I'm getting the new square?
* The most interesting comment was that there will be more accessories coming - maybe a variable angle accessory that isn't as prone to moving as the Festool one?
* If the angle fits the old squares, can we also expect the yet-to-be-announced accessories to also fit the old squares?
* It doesn't look like the model numbers have changed. Is anything printed on the square to indicate what model you have?
* Has TSO worked with their resellers to upgrade reseller stock in time for this announcement? Can I order from anyone and be confident that I'm getting the new square?
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TSO answers and comments to FOG questions on this thread:
YES, “it’s just like fine tuning the original”
Accessory compatibility: we always think in terms of “Systems” when designing. Whenever possible we provide forward and backward compatibility. For example the Angle Accessory part originated with the MTR-18 Triangle as a “Clamping Angle”. For most of this year and before we had anything to attach to them, we have had a standard accessory mounting pattern on the GRS-16, GRS-16 PE.
When a remodeling contractor customer asked to provide reference edge extension we sent him the standard Angle from the MTR-18 accessory kit to establish that this is a useful combination. Now we are offering the existing Angle and add the required M6 Socket Head Stainless Screws and M5 Allen wrench in a standalone kit not previously orderable as a complete accessory.
Yet to be announced accessories: YES, they will be designed to fit not only the new GRS-16 but also be backward compatible with nearly all GRS-16 produced in 2017.
Variable Angle Accessory? – that is actually what our existing MTR-18 Triangle System does already.
Model number unchanged: the differences between various versions did not change the purpose or function and did not warrant creating a different model designation. The easiest way to distinguish the current production version from one of several earlier ones is to compare the current pictures on our website.
Reseller stock upgrade: very little earlier “original” version is left at resellers. If you want to be sure to receive the newest version, look for the SKU numbers: 61-130 GRS-16 and SKU 61-230. Give resellers at least a week. We did not do as good a job of getting them ahead of the curve as we should have – “Lesson learned”!
TSO business philosophy: we design products to be “keepers” not short lived planned obsolescence. The current version GRS-16 was not designed with the expectation that customers would now dispose of their original Square and generate new sales for us. The changes are refinements which don’t make your earlier GRS_16 obsolete.
Upgrading existing GRS-16 in customer hands? – the changes to the product involve mostly machining – but based on starting with thicker material: up from half inch in earlier production tools to 5/8” (15mm) now. Like cutting wood, its not practical to “add” material after the fact. Re-machining existing GRS-16 tools in those areas where removal would bring it closer to current production is technically possible. In our view the improvement would not justify the cost. The only tangible change which is technically feasible is to exchange the Latch Assembly. We have no plans to offer a replacement program for the Latch. It is a very costly specialized part to build – more than you would believe. So we don’t think any purpose would be served by offering a $ 50.00 replacement Latch. Our Pro customers have told us repeatedly that they don’t care if their rails have indentations from FESTOOL rail connectors in the underside t-slot or from a visible marking on the edge of a guide rail t-slot edge from a GRS-16 Latch.
We hear you
Hans
YES, “it’s just like fine tuning the original”
Accessory compatibility: we always think in terms of “Systems” when designing. Whenever possible we provide forward and backward compatibility. For example the Angle Accessory part originated with the MTR-18 Triangle as a “Clamping Angle”. For most of this year and before we had anything to attach to them, we have had a standard accessory mounting pattern on the GRS-16, GRS-16 PE.
When a remodeling contractor customer asked to provide reference edge extension we sent him the standard Angle from the MTR-18 accessory kit to establish that this is a useful combination. Now we are offering the existing Angle and add the required M6 Socket Head Stainless Screws and M5 Allen wrench in a standalone kit not previously orderable as a complete accessory.
Yet to be announced accessories: YES, they will be designed to fit not only the new GRS-16 but also be backward compatible with nearly all GRS-16 produced in 2017.
Variable Angle Accessory? – that is actually what our existing MTR-18 Triangle System does already.
Model number unchanged: the differences between various versions did not change the purpose or function and did not warrant creating a different model designation. The easiest way to distinguish the current production version from one of several earlier ones is to compare the current pictures on our website.
Reseller stock upgrade: very little earlier “original” version is left at resellers. If you want to be sure to receive the newest version, look for the SKU numbers: 61-130 GRS-16 and SKU 61-230. Give resellers at least a week. We did not do as good a job of getting them ahead of the curve as we should have – “Lesson learned”!
TSO business philosophy: we design products to be “keepers” not short lived planned obsolescence. The current version GRS-16 was not designed with the expectation that customers would now dispose of their original Square and generate new sales for us. The changes are refinements which don’t make your earlier GRS_16 obsolete.
Upgrading existing GRS-16 in customer hands? – the changes to the product involve mostly machining – but based on starting with thicker material: up from half inch in earlier production tools to 5/8” (15mm) now. Like cutting wood, its not practical to “add” material after the fact. Re-machining existing GRS-16 tools in those areas where removal would bring it closer to current production is technically possible. In our view the improvement would not justify the cost. The only tangible change which is technically feasible is to exchange the Latch Assembly. We have no plans to offer a replacement program for the Latch. It is a very costly specialized part to build – more than you would believe. So we don’t think any purpose would be served by offering a $ 50.00 replacement Latch. Our Pro customers have told us repeatedly that they don’t care if their rails have indentations from FESTOOL rail connectors in the underside t-slot or from a visible marking on the edge of a guide rail t-slot edge from a GRS-16 Latch.
We hear you
Hans
HarveyWildes
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Thanks for the quick answers. Very useful.
I'm thinking of something that would attach to the guide rail and not require a table. I have the Festool angle guide, and I actually like it quite well, except that you have to check the angle setting frequently. If you want to make sure it doesn't move under pressure, you have to clamp it. I've been hoping that TSO would come up with something similar that would hold the angle setting more reliably. Just my input into the process...
TSO Products said:
I'm thinking of something that would attach to the guide rail and not require a table. I have the Festool angle guide, and I actually like it quite well, except that you have to check the angle setting frequently. If you want to make sure it doesn't move under pressure, you have to clamp it. I've been hoping that TSO would come up with something similar that would hold the angle setting more reliably. Just my input into the process...
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HarveyWildes said:
[member=61231]HarveyWildes[/member] - off-topic now, but let me explain: you ask a question or pose a woodworking problem. If I hint or disclose what have in the works that might address exactly what you're asking, then I will be peppered with questions and hounded for more details. I really want to be open with our woodworking community about what we are doing or thinking. But experience is showing TSO that there are limits as to what works on the internet.
Stay in touch - all of you, please [wink]
Hans
TSO Products said:
Oops! hit wrong button
I just went to TSO site and investigated the MTR-18 Triangle System which I had not done til now. Except for so many lose parts that can roll around, that is ingenious. I am working on a project using several methods to get the proper angle. I went thru a lot of scraps before I got the perfect angle of closure. It looks like the MTR-18 Triangle System might have saved a lot of time (but cut back on my kindling wood supply [scared]). I had gotten a tool from another company that is accurate but too small for complete accuracy. I finally went to a drawing layout tool that I got from my Dad many moons ago but even that had a small parallax problem and required several adjustments. The MTR-18 appears to have solved both problems in one tool. Now, all I need is to figure out a budgeting problem. As an ancient friend and mentor might have said "Umpty, Umpty, Misery, misery, misery"
Tinker
Getmaverick
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TSO Products said:
I don't care about the latch either. I'm more concerned about the additional machined holes that's not on the original.
I have to assume they are there for a purpose.
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about upgrade of existing GRS-16:
all of the posts relating to this are of interest to us and very helpful in figuring out what makes sense.
Philosophically we do not aim for planned obsolescence. When we first added the M6 hole pattern on 100mm centers we also started thinking how we could help early adopters add this feature to their GRS-16.
Generally, our thinking with upgrades of existing tools in customer hands recognizes that the economics and lost availability of use during the process works against the potential benefits. We thought about an exchange program too, to eliminate the turn around time. The small number of tools involved make this approach less feasible, too.
The most promising approach we looked at early on was to provide our customers with access to a custom drill jig to permit precision modification in the field. The jig would need to reference off each of the 90 degree edges of the GRS-16.Since that operation would be a one-time use of the jig, we would need to find a way to have a loaner program to make this more cost effective and affordable than outright purchase
Simple in concept, - but when you look at every detailed step of such a program, including the logistics, accounting, etc. even a loaner program quickly stops being "simple and low cost".
We cannot commit to develop an upgrade program until we see the need, economic justification and generally a sufficiently clear picture that makes sense for all concerned.
The best thing for interested customers to do is to be signed up to our TSO INSIDER Newsletter and look for news on this topic - including news about future accessories designed to take advantage of the mounting pattern.
Hope this helps.
Hans and Eric
all of the posts relating to this are of interest to us and very helpful in figuring out what makes sense.
Philosophically we do not aim for planned obsolescence. When we first added the M6 hole pattern on 100mm centers we also started thinking how we could help early adopters add this feature to their GRS-16.
Generally, our thinking with upgrades of existing tools in customer hands recognizes that the economics and lost availability of use during the process works against the potential benefits. We thought about an exchange program too, to eliminate the turn around time. The small number of tools involved make this approach less feasible, too.
The most promising approach we looked at early on was to provide our customers with access to a custom drill jig to permit precision modification in the field. The jig would need to reference off each of the 90 degree edges of the GRS-16.Since that operation would be a one-time use of the jig, we would need to find a way to have a loaner program to make this more cost effective and affordable than outright purchase
Simple in concept, - but when you look at every detailed step of such a program, including the logistics, accounting, etc. even a loaner program quickly stops being "simple and low cost".
We cannot commit to develop an upgrade program until we see the need, economic justification and generally a sufficiently clear picture that makes sense for all concerned.
The best thing for interested customers to do is to be signed up to our TSO INSIDER Newsletter and look for news on this topic - including news about future accessories designed to take advantage of the mounting pattern.
Hope this helps.
Hans and Eric
Cheese
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Hey Hans, not knowing exactly what those holes will be used for means I also don’t know the positional accuracy required of them. Having said that, have you considered providing a heavy paper/poster board template? That way anyone having decent hand skills and a drill press could do the upgrade themselves. I have both of the original squares and would be interested in upgrading them.
For the last 20 years or so, with all of the metalworking I do, when I need to place holes exactly, (I don’t have a mill) I just draw up a full scale template on Autocad, print it on printer paper and mark the centers. Over the years I’ve proven to myself that the locational tolerance of those holes is within a .003” to .007” range. Certainly good enough for the projects I’m working on.
I’d certainly agree a jig would be preferable, but that could get expensive and become unwieldy depending upon the number of players.
Just another thought...
For the last 20 years or so, with all of the metalworking I do, when I need to place holes exactly, (I don’t have a mill) I just draw up a full scale template on Autocad, print it on printer paper and mark the centers. Over the years I’ve proven to myself that the locational tolerance of those holes is within a .003” to .007” range. Certainly good enough for the projects I’m working on.
I’d certainly agree a jig would be preferable, but that could get expensive and become unwieldy depending upon the number of players.
Just another thought...
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Most will think this is a crazy idea but that's all it is, an idea. If you don't consider all the possibilities how can you arrive at the best solution.
You said that a loaner program was considered. If there are no consumables in the kit is it feasible to have one user send it on to the next person in a token-ring style instead of cycling the kit back and forth in a hub and spoke arrangement from TSO to each user then back to TSO and out the door again to the next used.
You could email a pre-paid shipping label (paid for by the next user when they sign up) to first user that they print out and use to send the kit on it's way to the second person.
In this way two or three kits could be making the rounds at the same time and cover as much ground as maybe a dozen kits. The biggest kink is how fast each person makes use of the jig to 'upgrade' their square. Maybe a rebate or store credit for a couple bucks off your next order for sending it on within 4 days which would be less than the kit cycling back to TSO and out the door to the next person.
Commence with the negativity.
You said that a loaner program was considered. If there are no consumables in the kit is it feasible to have one user send it on to the next person in a token-ring style instead of cycling the kit back and forth in a hub and spoke arrangement from TSO to each user then back to TSO and out the door again to the next used.
You could email a pre-paid shipping label (paid for by the next user when they sign up) to first user that they print out and use to send the kit on it's way to the second person.
In this way two or three kits could be making the rounds at the same time and cover as much ground as maybe a dozen kits. The biggest kink is how fast each person makes use of the jig to 'upgrade' their square. Maybe a rebate or store credit for a couple bucks off your next order for sending it on within 4 days which would be less than the kit cycling back to TSO and out the door to the next person.
Commence with the negativity.
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- so, one idea would involve complete sets containing :
CNC machined aluminum jigs with hardened drill bushings,
M6 tap drill
M6 Tap
Tap handle
Countersink
Re-usable shipping container
To make it practical, stage numbered sets with TSO as well as international dealers to circulate within the country / duty zone.
Forward from user to user.
Let's see where this goes.
Hans
CNC machined aluminum jigs with hardened drill bushings,
M6 tap drill
M6 Tap
Tap handle
Countersink
Re-usable shipping container
To make it practical, stage numbered sets with TSO as well as international dealers to circulate within the country / duty zone.
Forward from user to user.
Let's see where this goes.
Hans
Cheese
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Hey Hans,
How about including a small bottle of AlumTap as others may not have this on hand.
http://www.tapfree.com/alumtap.html
How about including a small bottle of AlumTap as others may not have this on hand.
http://www.tapfree.com/alumtap.html
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[member=44099]Cheese[/member] - I was thinking about that before I sent off my previous post but figured if I went that far then somebody would suggest including shop towels, too [wink]Cheese said:
Seriously now: given the sticky nature of aluminum something is needed. I'm trying to remember the brand of a "lube-stick" type of product I used before on a rework project where liquid was not a good option. The lube stick type of product would also be easier/safer to ship without leaking.
Perhaps one of the members can offer a lube stick product suggestion we could include.
Hans
bnaboatbuilder said:
Certainly nothing lowly here in my book and it is good advice for all vendors out there. The genuine concern here is potential customers could hold back any purchase of a new product from a particular company, fearing that a better version would come out in no time, or even before the first generation piece is put to use.
Not a fair comparison since Veritas is a much larger manufacturing operation, but when they released the improved version of the small plow plane, they offered a program so existing owners of the old version could mail in theirs for an upgrade. No one was left out in the enhancement process. Not every tool can be done like that of course.
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