UJK Parf Guide System - Videos
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ben_r_ said:
I hope so but it is not my call - it is Axminster and Lee Valley doing the business on this.
Peter
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Hi Everyone
I have just heard that Lee Valley have sold out of the Parf Guide System. It sounds very much like the early days when Axminster first started selling them - cautious levels of early stock and larger than expected orders.
Fear not, Axminster have their new Parf Guide System manufacturing facility fully operational and production is running smoothly.
I hear that Axminster may be inviting PGS owners to send in pictures of their efforts - I do not know any detail and will leave that to them to let people know.
In the meantime, I would like to thank PGS owners world-wide for supporting all of this.
Peter
Alias "Parfagoras"
I have just heard that Lee Valley have sold out of the Parf Guide System. It sounds very much like the early days when Axminster first started selling them - cautious levels of early stock and larger than expected orders.
Fear not, Axminster have their new Parf Guide System manufacturing facility fully operational and production is running smoothly.
I hear that Axminster may be inviting PGS owners to send in pictures of their efforts - I do not know any detail and will leave that to them to let people know.
In the meantime, I would like to thank PGS owners world-wide for supporting all of this.
Peter
Alias "Parfagoras"
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Hi Everyone
I was asked about putting intermediate holes midway between a pair of existing holes either on an MFT3 or a custom bench or track saw station that one might have. I have shown two methods of doing this, and both are very easy, in the following Workshop Notes video. One method shows how to do it if one is creating a pattern of holes from scratch and the second method is the case (that I was asked about by Martin) doing it on an MFT3 or where the 20 mm holes were already in place.
Both methods are very accurate.
Peter
I was asked about putting intermediate holes midway between a pair of existing holes either on an MFT3 or a custom bench or track saw station that one might have. I have shown two methods of doing this, and both are very easy, in the following Workshop Notes video. One method shows how to do it if one is creating a pattern of holes from scratch and the second method is the case (that I was asked about by Martin) doing it on an MFT3 or where the 20 mm holes were already in place.
Both methods are very accurate.
Peter
I'm a big fan of Lee Valley. But since they do not offer the 20mm Centrotec bit or the rail clips, I ordered the whole kit from Axminster last Wed. 25 Jan. Arrived in good shape this morning, 1 Feb. Thanks to Axminster for the fine service. And thanks to Peter for what appears to be a great design. Looking forward to playing with it this weekend.
Cheers,
Barney
Cheers,
Barney
If you've got a set of parf dogs that were manufactured when they were first released, there may be an issue fitting them into the jig for the PGS. I'm having trouble with both the short and tall dogs, neither will fit inside the jig, they get stuck halfway. I do have another set of tall dogs I ordered a year or so ago and those fit inside very tightly. I'm going to call Lee Valley tomorrow. I suspect they will just send out a new set of dogs.
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RKA said:
Hi Raj
My Parf Dogs are from that very first batch and you will see them in all of my videos. The fit is certainly snug and if you have a dog inclined slightly it will not pass through the hole. I have alerted Axminster ( [member=63423]AxminsterTools[/member] ) who should do the checking first.
Peter
squarecut
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[member=21249]RKA[/member] I am getting ready to use my PGS on new bench tops & your post regarding this problem prompted me to checkout the fit of my Parf dogs to the PGS jig. I basically found the same problem you described much to my chagrin. I tried the 3mm bushing supplied with the PGS & found that it initially was a tight fit as well. This indicated to me that quite possibly the orange finish was of enough thickness to be causing the problem. I decided to try some moderate experimenting to see if I could rectify the issue without going the vendor complaint route. First, I applied a coating of 3 in 1 oil to both the inside of the jig holes & the external surface of the Parf dogs to negate friction. Then I used very fine steel wool on the oiled surfaces to remove any possible foreign matter. Then using extreme patience I proceeded to press each Parf dog into each hole at least a half dozen times. Each time the dog entry got easier. I suspect the tolerances on the hole & Parf dog are very tight to insure accuracy of the system & if the dog is slightly askew it will immediately jam, so care must be taken when inserting it. I have one set of Long & Short Parf dogs I purchased in March 2014 & two pair Short - one pair Long purchased in August 2016 so I do not think the issue is with the dogs, at least in my case. By the way, the long dogs are not used with the PGS. I realize this can be frustrating as one would expect the components to mate right out of the box. Hope my findings help with your issue.RKA said:
[member=26002]squarecut[/member] [member=11196]Peter Parfitt[/member]
Thanks! I played with it for 15 minutes last night. I tried wax and that didn't improve matters with the old dogs. I too thought the anodization may have added just enough thickness to cause binding. The newer dogs however go in just right (you do have to be careful not to insert at an angle or it can bind). If anything it's a little fiddly and I expect oil will smooth it out nicely. I know it needs to be a very tight fit to maintain precision, but it does seems the older dogs are sized exactly the same size as the hole rather than a thou smaller. I'll try the oil anyway but I doubt it will improve matters.
It's very possible they were never milled with this level of precision from batch to batch. In the way they were originally intended to work, this variation would never be seen or noticed in a finished product, but with Peter's subsequent ingenuity....
BTW, I checked the dates on my orders. The older dogs were shipped on 10/15/13 and the newer set were shipped on 1/4/16.
Thanks! I played with it for 15 minutes last night. I tried wax and that didn't improve matters with the old dogs. I too thought the anodization may have added just enough thickness to cause binding. The newer dogs however go in just right (you do have to be careful not to insert at an angle or it can bind). If anything it's a little fiddly and I expect oil will smooth it out nicely. I know it needs to be a very tight fit to maintain precision, but it does seems the older dogs are sized exactly the same size as the hole rather than a thou smaller. I'll try the oil anyway but I doubt it will improve matters.
It's very possible they were never milled with this level of precision from batch to batch. In the way they were originally intended to work, this variation would never be seen or noticed in a finished product, but with Peter's subsequent ingenuity....
BTW, I checked the dates on my orders. The older dogs were shipped on 10/15/13 and the newer set were shipped on 1/4/16.
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Hi Chaps
Sorry but I have been out all day and have only just returned to base.
Axminster are aware of this and are doing some research now. I do not believe that it is a Lee Valley / Parf Dog problem at this stage - after all they are making Parf Dogs for track saw cutting stations and Axminster are utilising them in the Parf Guide System to create custom track saw cutting stations. Here are my thoughts but I must stress that [member=63423]AxminsterTools[/member] will need to let us know what they discover.
1. The fit of the dog shoulders in the 20 mm jig has been made deliberately as close as possible to slop free.
2. Yes, it is certainly possible for the anodising to be just a dash too thick - or rather the oxide is too thick. This is being looked at by Axminster and their anodising processor.
3. The deliberate tighter fit means that the dogs may need a little "wiggle" to get perfect alignment for them to pass through.
4. I would hope that Axminster can give some very simple guidance to users to sort this out which would not invalidate any warranty - something along the lines of what [member=26002]squarecut[/member] has done - but please wait for Axminster's advice.
If the fit of the dogs into the 20 mm guide block were loose then the accuracy might suffer.
Peter
Sorry but I have been out all day and have only just returned to base.
Axminster are aware of this and are doing some research now. I do not believe that it is a Lee Valley / Parf Dog problem at this stage - after all they are making Parf Dogs for track saw cutting stations and Axminster are utilising them in the Parf Guide System to create custom track saw cutting stations. Here are my thoughts but I must stress that [member=63423]AxminsterTools[/member] will need to let us know what they discover.
1. The fit of the dog shoulders in the 20 mm jig has been made deliberately as close as possible to slop free.
2. Yes, it is certainly possible for the anodising to be just a dash too thick - or rather the oxide is too thick. This is being looked at by Axminster and their anodising processor.
3. The deliberate tighter fit means that the dogs may need a little "wiggle" to get perfect alignment for them to pass through.
4. I would hope that Axminster can give some very simple guidance to users to sort this out which would not invalidate any warranty - something along the lines of what [member=26002]squarecut[/member] has done - but please wait for Axminster's advice.
If the fit of the dogs into the 20 mm guide block were loose then the accuracy might suffer.
Peter
squarecut
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[member=21249]RKA[/member] [member=11196]Peter Parfitt[/member]
Have done some more experimenting & I am more convinced that the culprit may well be the anodizing thickness. Went through another series of repetitive insertions of the dogs into the guide bar holes resulting in greater ease of insertion.
Also, I discovered that it is more difficult attempting to accomplish insertion freehand than it is with the guide block positioned above 20mm holes in the work surface. In addition, by utilizing the fastening knob from the Festool clamping elements threaded onto the Parf dog it aids insertion. This practice lines up the dog with the 20mm hole and virtually eliminates the skewing of the dog in the guide block hole thus preventing jamming. I also tried the long Parf dog as a substitute for the knob and that worked as well.
Have done some more experimenting & I am more convinced that the culprit may well be the anodizing thickness. Went through another series of repetitive insertions of the dogs into the guide bar holes resulting in greater ease of insertion.
Also, I discovered that it is more difficult attempting to accomplish insertion freehand than it is with the guide block positioned above 20mm holes in the work surface. In addition, by utilizing the fastening knob from the Festool clamping elements threaded onto the Parf dog it aids insertion. This practice lines up the dog with the 20mm hole and virtually eliminates the skewing of the dog in the guide block hole thus preventing jamming. I also tried the long Parf dog as a substitute for the knob and that worked as well.
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Peter, I tried oil and it didn't resolve the issue, the older dogs will not fit. But I did realize the bottom side of the hole is a hair wider allowing the dog to get halfway in before it binds. The top side is narrower preventing the dog from getting into the hole at all. Trying this same thing with the newer dogs yielded the same results, in the sense it was easier to insert from the bottom and more difficult to insert in the top (but since they are a bit smaller, they will insert fully from either side).
Hopefully that helps shed some light. Pics are below in case I wasn't clear in my descriptions.
(Edit 2/13/17)
Just a quick follow up on this issue for those similarly affected. I deemed the fit a little too tight to proceed with the honing and since I could see variation in the dogs, I asked Lee Valley to send out a replacement set for the ones I purchased in 2013. The new set arrived last week and the small dogs fit perfectly in the guide. The larger dogs almost fit. I could hone the guide a bit, however really speaking, I will only use the short dogs with this guide and they fit perfectly, so why add slop to the fit? In summary:
-small and large dogs purchased in 2013 do not fit
-large dogs purchased in 2016 do fit
-small dogs from 2017 do fit
-large dogs from 2017 do not fit
Kudos to Lee Valley for their excellent service!
Hopefully that helps shed some light. Pics are below in case I wasn't clear in my descriptions.
(Edit 2/13/17)
Just a quick follow up on this issue for those similarly affected. I deemed the fit a little too tight to proceed with the honing and since I could see variation in the dogs, I asked Lee Valley to send out a replacement set for the ones I purchased in 2013. The new set arrived last week and the small dogs fit perfectly in the guide. The larger dogs almost fit. I could hone the guide a bit, however really speaking, I will only use the short dogs with this guide and they fit perfectly, so why add slop to the fit? In summary:
-small and large dogs purchased in 2013 do not fit
-large dogs purchased in 2016 do fit
-small dogs from 2017 do fit
-large dogs from 2017 do not fit
Kudos to Lee Valley for their excellent service!
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southrider
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My first thought is that a very fine valve grinding compound would lap them in for a perfect fit (apply to the inner surface, insert the dog, and gently rotate 180 degrees clockwise and counterclockwise 3 or 4 times, then clean profusely.
If there is a fear of that being too aggressive then try using toothpaste as the lapping compound. It is MUCH finer than valve compound.
Either would leave shallower scratches than steel wool.
If there is a fear of that being too aggressive then try using toothpaste as the lapping compound. It is MUCH finer than valve compound.
Either would leave shallower scratches than steel wool.
AxminsterTools
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Good Afternoon All,
The tolerances we use when machining the hole in the jig are extremely accurate, the jig is then anodized which gives a better, more durable protective coating.
The anodizing process adds a very small layer on the surface of the block, normally around 15-20 microns in thickness. To put that into context, photo copier paper is around 100 microns. After anodizing all the holes are checked for tolerance using a plug gauge.
The dog and hole are both made to such a high tolerance that very occasionally you may experience the dog being a bit tight when inserting into the hole. If this occurs we would recommend using a very mild abrasive such as brasso / T-cut / honing pastes, or as South Rider recommends toothpaste, between the dog and hole to slacken the whole ever so slightly. This will likely only need a couple of turns "back and forth" to sort.
Of course, should this no remedy the issue or you do not feel comfortable taking the remedial steps then we will replace any guide block FOC.
We trust that helps.
Best regards
Axminster Tools & Machinery
The tolerances we use when machining the hole in the jig are extremely accurate, the jig is then anodized which gives a better, more durable protective coating.
The anodizing process adds a very small layer on the surface of the block, normally around 15-20 microns in thickness. To put that into context, photo copier paper is around 100 microns. After anodizing all the holes are checked for tolerance using a plug gauge.
The dog and hole are both made to such a high tolerance that very occasionally you may experience the dog being a bit tight when inserting into the hole. If this occurs we would recommend using a very mild abrasive such as brasso / T-cut / honing pastes, or as South Rider recommends toothpaste, between the dog and hole to slacken the whole ever so slightly. This will likely only need a couple of turns "back and forth" to sort.
Of course, should this no remedy the issue or you do not feel comfortable taking the remedial steps then we will replace any guide block FOC.
We trust that helps.
Best regards
Axminster Tools & Machinery
squarecut
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[member=63423]AxminsterTools[/member]
Thank you for your prompt response to this issue - used toothpaste as suggested by your post and combined with my prior experimental remedies, my issue has been resolved. As [member=11196]Peter Parfitt[/member] is fond of saying - Spot On ! Also a shout out to [member=42863]SouthRider[/member] for his toothpaste suggestion as well.
Thank you for your prompt response to this issue - used toothpaste as suggested by your post and combined with my prior experimental remedies, my issue has been resolved. As [member=11196]Peter Parfitt[/member] is fond of saying - Spot On ! Also a shout out to [member=42863]SouthRider[/member] for his toothpaste suggestion as well.
southrider
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Thanx guys - in another lifetime I was a motorcycle mechanic, and apprentice to a true master.
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When I was "cut adrift" by my father as I left home after schooling I had £50 to my name. That was a reasonable amount of money in 1968 and I felt reasonably secure as I boarded the train to London with all of my worldly possessions with me.
I had made most of that stash from grinding valves on old cars - for the UK people that was B series engines and the Morris 1000s and Wolsey 1500s come to mind - there were quite a few big ends too.
But I have learnt a little more now and toothpaste is certainly the flavour of the day.
Well done everyone and thank you Mr Axminster for giving great advice.
Peter
I had made most of that stash from grinding valves on old cars - for the UK people that was B series engines and the Morris 1000s and Wolsey 1500s come to mind - there were quite a few big ends too.
But I have learnt a little more now and toothpaste is certainly the flavour of the day.
Well done everyone and thank you Mr Axminster for giving great advice.
Peter
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