uk price fixing still alive and well

[Kev]

I think its ALLOWED  to shop around for a bargain. I would rather buy a good quality tool from a faceless web site than have a chat with some rep in a shop who will sell me the same tool at a higher price!
I am perturbed by the fact that Festool are manufactured in Germany and sell in Ireland and the UK for a higher price than they sell in the US????.
Surely the shipping costs alone would increase the cost to sell in the US? Or am I missing somthing and its all about government tax?

I think the notion that certain tools should give people a notion of elitism is pathetic.

It is all about creating good work and for tradesmen to better themselves and provide for their families. To own good quality tools from any good tool manufacturer that will help them in their day to day work.

We can all see the changes on the high street. It is not getting destroyed it is in a period of change. Actual stores are being replaced by online companies.
These companies still have to employ people and they have owners who turn a profit and they have customers who use them over and over!

I think people need to realise that how people shop whether online or on the high street is in a dramatic period of change where even experts can not forsee where it will all end up.

Shopping for a bargain and exploiting a service that is offered freely by a premium retailer or service provider are very different things.

Similar things happen online too ... you'll often see product information copied or hot linked shamelessly.

Human nature is to want to pay less - that's OK. My gripe is the exploitation commonly performed.

A brazen example I heard about was a kitchen installer that told his clients to get a number of professional design quotations, then the client would pick the one they preferred and he would install for a percentage less (free design work? someone ate the cost)

Another was where a landscape garden designer was asked to design and quote for a job by a wealthy estate owner ... then the design was given to a cheap contractor to do by the estate owner ... you can see how they got rich.

Using a premium retailer to quiz for knowledge and then buying cheaper online is no different to the above two cases.

Any tradesman on this forum and elsewhere would be greatly upset by a prospect they provided designs and quotations, using that same material to solicit a cheaper price.

To be clear, I'm not comparing a person that simply walks into a shop and asked for a price to a person that uses the time and resources of a retailer to gather knowledge - the two are very different.

Talking evolution ... a smart retailer would try to cover both channels, but often they're just not savvy enough. So Darwin will come into play and most bricks and mortar retailers will just die off.

Apple has been about the only company that has managed to avert the physical v's web debacle ... several have tried to copy, but often with a "store within a store" concept and frankly they aren't sustainable over time.

BTW, where are you going with the elitism thing? Are you suggesting that some Festool buyers on this forum are elitists ? Careful not to confuse enthusiasm with elitism.

 

[Wooden Lungs]

Hi Kev,
The elitism remark was in reference to a post on this thread that was deleted, so to you and anyone who is reading this thread late it is out of context.
Thank you for your comments which I take on board. When you discuss "premiem retailer" I am a bit lost.

If I am in the market for say a new saw for example I will discuss it with people I work with and then maybe Google it or look at what other tradesmen are buying.
I may even look on "you tube" for a vid. Then I will look for the "Saw" at a cheap price online.
So where does the premium retailer come in?
Good tools sell themselves as far as I am concerned.
I do not need to go into a store and discuss the tool with someone who obviously does not use tools in their day to day work.
As there is only one tool shop near me and they are not helpfull in any way. Also they do not negotiate on prices and they are notoriously expensive.
I still buy from them if I need something there and then, but they are a last resort.
Yes you are right, there are many form of exploitation in the retail market and in fact any market as we have seen with the bankers.
exploitation; that is, the act of using another person's labor without offering them an adequate compensation
So who am I exploiting when I buy something online for a cheaper price than in some local tool shop?

 

[Davej]

I'm with Wooden Lungs on this one , my local festool/  'other ' tool dealer  doesnt know diddly squat about the products they sell , I  do all my research elsewhere then give them the option to  get close enough to the best price i can find to clinch the deal , I  dont mind paying a little extra to buy it locally but it annoys me that for building materials they are very competitive but for tools they are almost verging on flippant , after all some profit is better than  none surely !

 

[neth27]

I think its ALLOWED  to shop around for a bargain. I would rather buy a good quality tool from a faceless web site than have a chat with some rep in a shop who will sell me the same tool at a higher price!
I am perturbed by the fact that Festool are manufactured in Germany and sell in Ireland and the UK for a higher price than they sell in the US????.
Surely the shipping costs alone would increase the cost to sell in the US? Or am I missing somthing and its all about government tax?

I think the notion that certain tools should give people a notion of elitism is pathetic.

It is all about creating good work and for tradesmen to better themselves and provide for their families. To own good quality tools from any good tool manufacturer that will help them in their day to day work.

We can all see the changes on the high street. It is not getting destroyed it is in a period of change. Actual stores are being replaced by online companies.
These companies still have to employ people and they have owners who turn a profit and they have customers who use them over and over!

I think people need to realise that how people shop whether online or on the high street is in a dramatic period of change where even experts can not forsee where it will all end up.

Shopping for a bargain and exploiting a service that is offered freely by a premium retailer or service provider are very different things.

Similar things happen online too ... you'll often see product information copied or hot linked shamelessly.

Human nature is to want to pay less - that's OK. My gripe is the exploitation commonly performed.

A brazen example I heard about was a kitchen installer that told his clients to get a number of professional design quotations, then the client would pick the one they preferred and he would install for a percentage less (free design work? someone ate the cost)

Another was where a landscape garden designer was asked to design and quote for a job by a wealthy estate owner ... then the design was given to a cheap contractor to do by the estate owner ... you can see how they got rich.

Using a premium retailer to quiz for knowledge and then buying cheaper online is no different to the above two cases.

Any tradesman on this forum and elsewhere would be greatly upset by a prospect they provided designs and quotations, using that same material to solicit a cheaper price.

To be clear, I'm not comparing a person that simply walks into a shop and asked for a price to a person that uses the time and resources of a retailer to gather knowledge - the two are very different.

Talking evolution ... a smart retailer would try to cover both channels, but often they're just not savvy enough. So Darwin will come into play and most bricks and mortar retailers will just die off.

Apple has been about the only company that has managed to avert the physical v's web debacle ... several have tried to copy, but often with a "store within a store" concept and frankly they aren't sustainable over time.

BTW, where are you going with the elitism thing? Are you suggesting that some Festool buyers on this forum are elitists ? Careful not to confuse enthusiasm with elitism.

The elitism thing im guessing was this and has been deleted...... Not only that more and more tradesmen are buying festool now cus they are becoming affordable.  I kinda liked the idea that it was out of the price range of a lot of trades men.

John....

 

[RC]

I'm not happy with local Festool pricing, but I still support my local small dealer since we have reached an understanding that if his price quotes are more than 10% over on-line prices incl. shipping I will shop on-line.

The unfortunate thing is that while he is really good on tool pricing and usually almost matches German on-line prices he apparently can't or won't compete with the consumable prices since their SRP here in almost double up over German on-line prices. Therefore I have to buy all add-ons and consumables on-line since they usually end up costing me with shipping about 50-60% of local best price.

His primarily business is running a paint shop and has Festools there mainly for the sanders so he doesn't know too much about woodworking so I can't say I'm getting much service as a woodworker from him so can't really say I'm paying for the service in any case.

Here only the dealers are allowed to give out discounts to private customers and TTS refrains themselves to only giving discounts to large business customers. This has been in effect for a couple of years now since basically the dealers revolted against TTS Finland because they were requiring fixed sales prices from the dealers and at the same time happily giving discounts to whoever happened to walk into their showroom. The flip side of this coin is that due to the dealers ability to discount tools TTS has hiked it's SRP prices through the ceiling here to give the dealers that 'discount headroom'.

For example the OF2200-Set SRP here is 1374€ vs. Germany SRP of 1232€ vs. German online price of 1133€ - 241€ price difference or 17,5%
Another example if the Kapex EB Set here 2482€ vs. Germany SRP 2226€ vs. German online price of 2,046€ - 436€ or 17,5% price difference
Or how about Granat 150gr (496980) box - here SRP is 84€, German SRP is 80€ and German online price is 45€ - 36€ or 46,4% price difference

Some of the above price difference can be explained by our rather high VAT of 24%, but Germany has a VAT of 19% on tools so it does not explain the full 17,5% price difference since there are no import duties within the EU to account for.

So in summary:

I happily pay him a little premium over on-line dealer prices just to help him have a reason to keep Festools in his selection even thou I could usually get my tools 3-9% cheaper from Germany. My reasoning for paying this price premium is just to have a dealer nearby that has at least some basic consumables in stock if I one day need something 'right now'.

 

[ldmillar1981]

I'm with Wooden Lungs on this one , my local festool/  'other ' tool dealer  doesnt know diddly squat about the products they sell , I  do all my research elsewhere then give them the option to  get close enough to the best price i can find to clinch the deal , I  dont mind paying a little extra to buy it locally but it annoys me that for building materials they are very competitive but for tools they are almost verging on flippant , after all some profit is better than  none surely !

+1

You spend a large sum year on year, why not get some discount on tools

 

[Davej]

If  Festool are  so ( seemingly ) hard nosed about price fixing why dont they use Hilti's sales model and only sell through their own shops with staff that really know their products , that way they cant be accused of price fixing  or leaning on sellers of their products to maintain their so called NON BINDING PRICES , Sorry but if its NON Binding they are being very hypocritical if they are ' leaning ' on distributers to maintain the price Festool want them to sell at , or am i just a naive  'almost 50 year old' with 30+ years in the building trade !

 

[Kev]

Hi Kev,
The elitism remark was in reference to a post on this thread that was deleted, so to you and anyone who is reading this thread late it is out of context.
Thank you for your comments which I take on board. When you discuss "premiem retailer" I am a bit lost.

If I am in the market for say a new saw for example I will discuss it with people I work with and then maybe Google it or look at what other tradesmen are buying.
I may even look on "you tube" for a vid. Then I will look for the "Saw" at a cheap price online.
So where does the premium retailer come in?
Good tools sell themselves as far as I am concerned.
I do not need to go into a store and discuss the tool with someone who obviously does not use tools in their day to day work.
As there is only one tool shop near me and they are not helpfull in any way. Also they do not negotiate on prices and they are notoriously expensive.
I still buy from them if I need something there and then, but they are a last resort.
Yes you are right, there are many form of exploitation in the retail market and in fact any market as we have seen with the bankers.
exploitation; that is, the act of using another person's labor without offering them an adequate compensation
So who am I exploiting when I buy something online for a cheaper price than in some local tool shop?

I'm not saying YOUR spwcific approach is exploiting if that is what you do.

I'm explaining the fine line between retail 'service" and bargaining v's blatant exploitation.

It costs significantly more to run a retail operation with demonstration stock and provide full business hours support than an indent stock online web sales operation. I really don't need to document the two different business models here - it should hopefully be obvious.

In my local space there's my premium Festool retailer that has extremely well trained Festool staff that have long foundation careers as French Polishers, joiners, etc and down the road I have the discount tool warehouse staffed by bargaining wide boys that wouldn't know which end of a chisel to hold.

Every town on the planet will be different - but I for one feel massive sympathy for the guys that are retail tool enthusiasts and are in business because they genuinely love the products they sell - not just the dollars they get in their bank account.

 

[bopperontbay]

So it seems after being fined millions festool are at it again.
Www.powertoolworld.co.uk seem to be clearing all there festool stock which is a real shame as it has always been the best online shop for me especially for small consumables drill bits etc as they pretty much always had everything in stock or got it to me quickly. It's the only real site in the uk that listed everything online every type of drill bits spares everything most sites just list all the big items.
It appears they have dropped festool or festool have dropped them which is happening to more and more dealers in the uk and when I speak to dealers they tell me how they are getting annoyed by the whole affair.

I just don't get it if festool sell to the dealers and get the price they want what does it matter to them how much the dealers make it makes no sense to me and to be honest I don't see how it is any of their business.

Don't get me wrong I am a festool addict like the next man on this forum but come on festool you are starting to tarnish your name and good business ethics.

It is really annoying me at the moment I go into local festool dealers and they are holding less and less stock.
I hit a imbedded nail with my ehl planer the other day I went into the local dealers and they didn't have any  spare blades it's becoming a joke when I asked they said they are holding fewer and fewer items.  What good is a fancy £200 planer when I can't get a spare blade when I need one quickly.  I resorted to buying a new blade for my old non festool planer. I also broke a  8mm brad bit and had to resort to buying a standard bit and use it in the normall chuck now that is not part of the system is it.

This store has been selling festool for over 20 years and they are getting fed up with all the rules you can do this you can do that.
It's the same with the new carvex and the special blades if I need some blades quickley I'm in a mess.

I always try to carry plenty of spares but sometimes I forget or run out if I cannot get them from local dealers or order online from good retailers then I'm gonna have to start looking elesewhere for some tools.

I would like to here other people's opinions on this

C'mon festool a rrp is exactly that a recommended retail price and dealers should be able to sell for whatever they want and not be bullied into selling at rrp or whatever they say.

 

[peter halle]

Please be advised that the post above has been merged into this thread from another location.

Peter Halle - Moderator