Upgrading Kitchen Elec to 20 Amps

E

extiger

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Jan 27, 2007
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I want to buy an Espresso Machine that will pull 20 Amps, 110 v. When our kitchen was built in 1995 I planned for lots of circuits in the house, including 220v in the kitchen and multiple 110 circuits.

Can I upgrade one 15 Amp circuit only by installing a 20 Amp breaker and limiting it to one outlet? I don't want to pull new wires or be breaking out walls.

Gary Curtis  ---- Los Angeles
 
extiger said:
I want to buy an Espresso Machine that will pull 20 Amps, 110 v. When our kitchen was built in 1995 I planned for lots of circuits in the house, including 220v in the kitchen and multiple 110 circuits.

Can I upgrade one 15 Amp circuit only by installing a 20 Amp breaker and limiting it to one outlet? I don't want to pull new wires or be breaking out walls.

Gary Curtis  ---- Los Angeles
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Only if the wire is 12 gauge or thicker.  If it is 14 gauge, it should have 15 amp or less protection.
 
extiger said:
I want to buy an Espresso Machine that will pull 20 Amps, 110 v. When our kitchen was built in 1995 I planned for lots of circuits in the house, including 220v in the kitchen and multiple 110 circuits.

Can I upgrade one 15 Amp circuit only by installing a 20 Amp breaker and limiting it to one outlet? I don't want to pull new wires or be breaking out walls.
Click to expand...

To be safe with a 20 amp circuit, you need to have 12 gauge wire or larger, even if there is only one outlet in the circuit.
 
I'll check the wiring. If it is 14 gauge, it might be easer to tap into a 220v oven barely 3 feet away and pull the proper size wire through an appliance barn. It won't show, so I won't have to knock out paster walls.

All the wires come down from the ceiling. A junction box is up there connecting all of the front house circuits to the main electrical service panel at the far rear of the house. This will be done by a general contractor I've used before, so the only think Mickey Mouse about it will be my lame jokes.

 
Since the '70's the NEC has required at least one 20-amp small appliance circuit in the kitchen. Check your wire size to the outlet you want to use, it's probably a 12 gauge. If it is you can swap the breaker for a 20.

I wouldn't tap off the oven circuit, you'd probably trip the breaker if you ran the oven and a 20-amp coffee maker at the same time.

HTH,
Bill
 
I agree on the NEC Code from the 70's. My problem is how come there weren't 20 amp breakers by code then if it was in fact 12 gauge copper wire

I would make sure of the wire gauge for sure

Sal
 
extiger said:
I'll check the wiring. If it is 14 gauge, it might be easer to tap into a 220v oven barely 3 feet away and pull the proper size wire through an appliance barn. It won't show, so I won't have to knock out paster walls.

All the wires come down from the ceiling. A junction box is up there connecting all of the front house circuits to the main electrical service panel at the far rear of the house. This will be done by a general contractor I've used before, so the only think Mickey Mouse about it will be my lame jokes.
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DO NOT TAP INTO THE OVEN WIRES!!!  Most oven will have a 30-40 amp breaker if you tap it,even with 12g that wire will not be protected!
The best thing to do is to run a new wire.  Use a 12g with a 20 amp breaker.If that expresso machine pulls 20 amp,you want a dedicated plug for it.
 
I can remove the cover plates on a few plugs and if I'm lucky, the numbering on the wire would show. Does it matter if the wire is stranded or solid copper.

I think each of the garbage disposals are on individual circuits. Then there is the 220 for the wall ovens. And I believe everything else (excluding lights) are on two circuits. The refrigerator and counter plugs are on those two.

If I see the 12 gauge wire, I know how to change out a CB at the panel. Do I need to replace the plug with that T-shaped outlet for 20 Amps?

 
To start with absolutely DO NOT tap off the oven outlet. DO NOT install a 20 amp breaker unless it is 12 ga. wire.

You're in CA. their electrical code is the NEC with amendments.

NEC Article 210.11(C)(1) which governs the counter top small appliance receptacles was not in the code until the 1999 code cycle. In 1984 there was Article 220-3(B)(1) that require 2 -20 amp circuits in the dwelling unit, they were not specific to the small appliance receptacles.  

Unless amended by your Authority Having Jurisdiction, you do not have to install 20 amp receptacles on you a 20 amp circuit. CA has not amended Table 210.21(B()2). It allows 15 amp receptacles on a 20 amp circuit, not the other way around though.

Tom
 
I totally respect your abilities, but I would advise that you get a licensed electrician to help you out.  A cup of coffee - no matter what brand / flavor - is not worth turning your house into a large toaster.

Peter
 
extiger said:
I can remove the cover plates on a few plugs and if I'm lucky, the numbering on the wire would show. Does it matter if the wire is stranded or solid copper.
You shouldn't see standed wire on a regular outlet

I think each of the garbage disposals are on individual circuits. Then there is the 220 for the wall ovens. And I believe everything else (excluding lights) are on two circuits. The refrigerator and counter plugs are on those two.
How many disposal do you need?
If I see the 12 gauge wire, I know how to change out a CB at the panel. Do I need to replace the plug with that T-shaped outlet for 20 Amps?
If the breaker is 15 amps,most likely the wire is 14g.I don't know any electricians that would use 12g wire and hook up to a 15 amps breaker.
What would be the point?
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To the OP, if your home is NM (Romex), the wires will not be labeled the jacket is.

Mastercabman,

There are 2 AHJ's here (Illinios not Indiana) that require a minimum 12ga. strained wire on all circuits in all dwellings. A 15 amp breaker is standard, 20 amps where required. 

Tom
 
tjbnwi said:
To start with absolutely DO NOT tap off the oven outlet. DO NOT install a 20 amp breaker unless it is 12 ga. wire.

You're in CA. their electrical code is the NEC with amendments.

NEC Article 210.11(C)(1) which governs the counter top small appliance receptacles was not in the code until the 1999 code cycle. In 1984 there was Article 220-3(B)(1) that require 2 -20 amp circuits in the dwelling unit, they were not specific to the small appliance receptacles.  

Unless amended by your Authority Having Jurisdiction, you do not have to install 20 amp receptacles on you a 20 amp circuit. CA has not amended Table 210.21(B()2). It allows 15 amp receptacles on a 20 amp circuit, not the other way around though.

Tom
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Concur 99%.  I would beg to differ on the receptacle to wiring gauge issue.  If you run 14 gauge wiring, the receptacles must be 15 amp, as should be the breaker.  No argument there.  If you run 12 gauge wiring you can use 15 or 20 amp rated receptacles, but the receptacle rating must match the breaker rating.  Example, you CAN use 15 amp receptacles on 12 gauge wiring, but you MUST use a 15 amp breaker to be consistent. 

[smile]
 
If unsure how to see quickly, take a piece of 20g or 14g, if you have some, an compare to the wire in the receptacle or look at the wiring in the breaker box. Might be easier then fishing in the actual receptacle box.
 
tjbnwi said:
Mastercabman,

There are 2 AHJ's here (Illinios not Indiana) that require a minimum 12ga. strained wire on all circuits in all dwellings. A 15 amp breaker is standard, 20 amps where required. 

Tom
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OK,But i think the OP is in California?
 
Sparktrician said:
tjbnwi said:
To start with absolutely DO NOT tap off the oven outlet. DO NOT install a 20 amp breaker unless it is 12 ga. wire.

You're in CA. their electrical code is the NEC with amendments.

NEC Article 210.11(C)(1) which governs the counter top small appliance receptacles was not in the code until the 1999 code cycle. In 1984 there was Article 220-3(B)(1) that require 2 -20 amp circuits in the dwelling unit, they were not specific to the small appliance receptacles.  

Unless amended by your Authority Having Jurisdiction, you do not have to install 20 amp receptacles on you a 20 amp circuit. CA has not amended Table 210.21(B()2). It allows 15 amp receptacles on a 20 amp circuit, not the other way around though.

Tom
Click to expand...

Concur 99%.  I would beg to differ on the receptacle to wiring gauge issue.  If you run 14 gauge wiring, the receptacles must be 15 amp, as should be the breaker.  No argument there.  If you run 12 gauge wiring you can use 15 or 20 amp rated receptacles, but the receptacle rating must match the breaker rating.  Example, you CAN use 15 amp receptacles on 12 gauge wiring, but you MUST use a 15 amp breaker to be consistent. 

[smile]
Click to expand...

210.21(B)(3) clearly states on line 2- Circuit Rating (Amperes) 20---Receptacle Rating (Amperes) 15 OR 20. You can use a 15 amp rated receptacle on a 20 amp circuit per the NEC. Unless the AHJ has amended to code.

MCM,

Yes he is in Ca., just pointing out why an electrician would use 12 ga. on a 15 amp circuit.

Tom
 
The Romex running to my undercabinet lights in the kitchen is 12 gauge. And in the service panel, there are 2 20-amp circuit breakers. This doesn't include the large 220v breaker for the oven. So, I am in business.
 
extiger said:
The Romex running to my undercabinet lights in the kitchen is 12 gauge. And in the service panel, there are 2 20-amp circuit breakers. This doesn't include the large 220v breaker for the oven. So, I am in business.
Click to expand...

YES YOU ARE!  Good luck with it and enjoy the new coffee! ;)
 
greenMonster said:
So .... guess I'm the only curious one but, what kind of coffee maker is this?
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It's most likely a built-in coffee machine
I have seen Bosch,Miele,Electrolux,Thermador.
 
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