Upgrading to a Bryd Tool Shelix cutter head

[jacko9]

I finally decided that I have had enough of hours long knife changes on my 12" Powermatic Planer and ordered a Byrd Tool Shelix carbide cutter head.  Anybody have experience with these cutter heads?  I wonder if I'm going to regret the high cost after I get it installed?

 

[Kev]

Wrong section? These look really high end industrial ...

Kev.

 

[John Stevens]

FWIW, I've had one on my 8" jointer for five or six years, and I'm spoiled for anything else.  Flawless finish and much quieter.  Nicked a few blades a couple years ago, but no problem--takes no effort or skill to rotate the nicked cutters and get back in business.  Will be upgrading to a Shelix for my planer within the year.

Regards,

John

 

[Ken Nagrod]

I've never heard anything bad about them other than the initial sticker shock, sort of like Festool.  You won't regret it, if you can afford it.  I see the savings taking place over the life of not replacing entire large blades, but rather individual little ones on the head when worn or damaged.

 

[ccarrolladams]

Before I signed the purchase orders for the large fixed machines which eventually were installed in my shop, I listened carefully to the experiences of all 6 of the cabinet makers I intended to hire. All had used a wide variety of sliding table saws, jointers, thickness planers and shapers. As they had available time before I has even located an appropriate building, in groups of 2 or 3 we met with reps for leading brands of heavy duty woodworking machines.

For the tilting arbor shaper, the jointer and thickness planer all of us agreed on Felder Format 4 industrial machines, although they are far more popular in So Cal with factories than shops. Most leading brands of planers and jointers can use many brands of knife assemblies. Those of us who use the planer and jointer the most have long preferred helical knives. Like my Festools I do not purchase knife assemblies based on purchase price. I need excellent results every day of operation. For a long time I have been confident in the knives and bits I buy from Felder. There is a whole lot to be said fro using a minimum of vendors. When the machines come from the same vendor as the cutters, neither sales person can blame the other. I have known our Felder sales manager for years and I am sure he does not have multiple personalities.

There is a DIY woodworking show on which the "star" seems to always need to clean up any wood he runs through his planer or jointer with hand planes. My reaction is he should have purchased decent machines and not the crap sold by his sponsor. Then, he should have stayed awake during his woodworking classes when setting planer and jointer knives was covered. In the real world of making a living turning purchased lumber into finished products you can sell on a deadline and at a fixed price, you cannot waste time fixing by hand fundamental mistakes made because you do not know how to use your tools and machines.

Way back when, at a time I had no room for a sliding table cabinet saw, I bought Festool TS55s because they produced glue ready cuts which saved me extra steps. Do any of you think I would sit still for a machine and set of knives that routinely required hand planing to remove tool marks?

 

[robdingnagian]

On a planer, there are probably some advantages, mostly pertaining to ease of cutter changing, vs knife setting. Also, you can rotate them to get a fresh knife, four faces per knife. As for cut quality, you are shearing, rather than chopping. On a wider planer, you can just skew the board for the same effect with normal knives. I don't see the need for them on jointers. With a jointer, you can just get it mostly flat and do the rest on the planer.

As for high end industrial, I'd say these are consumer grade. If you want to see a higher end industrial helical cutterhead, check out a Northfield,  Baxter Whitney, or Hermance head. So, if money is no object,

http://www.hermance.com/cutterhead.asp

http://www.northfieldwoodworking.com/Brochures-PDF/HelicalCarbideCutterHead.pdf

If it is, then the Byrd head will seem more reasonable.

Also, I've seen where a Byrd insert broke loose and took out many others around the head. This doesn't seem to be common and might have been due to faulty installation. It was probably the bolt that did most of the damage.

 

[JSands]

I have the Byrd in my 20" PM planar, bought it new with head pre installed.... superb... no reason to EVERY use straight knives in a planar IMO.... Helix wins in every dept., even cost, if you cost weigh over time.

I heard all the arguments to not use Helix in my 12" EXTREME Grizz jointer.  Well, in the end, its hogwash, the Byrd was just as effective in the jointer.  Cut quality is indistinguishable from my straight knives, and most importantly, you never have to worry about setting blades again.  Of course, you need a well machined head, and rock solid bearings, otherwise, cut quality can suffer, but you will know this right after installation...... mine is superb, Byrd seems to have good quality control if you read through these threads, very few complaints....

So the downers?

1)  Byrd has very pleasant and courteous employees, but they can be very forgetful, they left me hanging for 5 weeks with a downed jointer, when they promised 1 week.

2)  The installation of the head is critical...it must be on the same plane as the infeed table.  With kinves, you lift the knives up/down to match table plane... with helical head, you must shim the head to match the table height, sometimes very painstaking, specially at 12" as these heads are HEAVY and not easy to control once in place.  Once accurate with the proper metal shims, it will remain that way for life.    Now blade changes are a simple 90 deg turn of the heads, but I have not had to make my first 90 deg turn yet, the life of these little cutters is incredible.  The mix of carbide and shearing cutting action was brilliant...

3)  If you have to remove your head, IMO, you might as well have the bearings replaced and rechecked at the factory to assure they are concentric.    Byrd can do this for a relatively low cost, and this this eliminates a future bearing change.... I had them install heavy duty bearings, and I NEVER want to change-out this head again.  Not a simple job on my planar, limited hand space to work, and very awkward.... have some spare fan belts for lifting tools....

So was it a big project, well, you bet it was.... 2 of us, prob. 10 hours total, but when it was done, the results were nothing short of spectacular.  And the thought of never having to set another blade makes it well worth the PITA for change out.... in addition, I have passed some gnarly woods through this head, and it is virtually tear-out proof....with the straight knives, tear out often depended on blade sharpness, so always honing blades or changing them.    Within a few years, the Byrd head will pay for itself... 

I hope this helps those who are buying a new machine and have a choice to buy with pre installed Byrd head installed..... well worth the extra money at purchase vs. trying to do it yourself.  UPS charges alone were $125 each way to ship the head into Byrd for new bearings, so that is $250 towards the price of the machine with the pre-installed Byrd head.  I am sure in 20yrs, it will be hard to find straight knife machines.    I speak only of Byrd, cause I have no experience with the  other Helical head makers.  Its possible many of them are just as good.

Hope this helps...

 

[butzla]

I have one on my 8" jointer with no regrets.  Did anyone mention besides ease of knife changes, I now have to pay little or no attention to grain direction to avoid tear out? 

 

[WarnerConstCo.]

First, I can swap knives in my 24" planer and 16" jointer in about 40 minutes each, with machine adjustments included, it takes a few times and the right tools, but it can be done and maybe quicker for you.

I can sharpen the knives on my planer, in the head, in about 20 minutes tops.  That gives you a perfect cutting circle.

I see no point of them in a jointer.  All I need it for is getting me a flat side that I can put down and run through the planer.  You don't even have to completely flatten the whole face of the board, just get me an inch or so on both sides.

You can get a dang nice edge on your stock with straight knives.

Helical heads are where it is at.  Byrd heads are like a half way step.

I can get a byrd head for my 24" Yates American planer.  It is 3500 bucks.   [eek]  It would take me 3 days at least to swap it on my direct drive machine.

I won't mention the cost of cutter head bearings either.

I can buy 30 sets of knives for that price.  

I guess if all you used were highly figured woods, it may be alright.

Even with my planer knives freshly ground to a perfect cutting circle, you still need to finish sand your pieces, whether with a hand held sander or a wide belt sander.

 

[rjwz28]

Jacko, no way in the world will you regret getting it.  I got it on my jointer and planer.  If I were to buy a mew machine, I would for sure buy one with the Shelix.

rob

 

[Oldwood]

Hi,

I put a Byrd Tool Shelix head in my 20" planer the week before 2500 BF of 4/4 quarter sawn white oak was delivered to my shop for the cabinet doors & base & case for my current job. I am glad I bought it! For me the lack of tear out is worth having it even without the other benefits. I think the cost was around$1200.00. As mentioned install is critical but after the install you just need to revolve the cutters a quarter turn & you are good to go.
I would buy it again. I had a 10HP 24" Wadkin planer with a jointing & grinding attachment & that is a good system but requires more labour because the carbide lasts so much longer than the HSS.

Gerry

 

[jacko9]

Thanks guys,

Good information and very helpful.  I did order the Byrd with a new set of bearings installed and despite my initial posting complaining about the time to change planer knives (which I realize would be much quicker if I did it often), my real reason is to minimize tear out on ribbon mahogany, Claro walnut and rosewood.  I have had many occasions where my furniture piece was going through for the final cut and have a tear out ruin a very expensive of wood.

I am a hobbyist even though I did operate it as a business many years ago and at my age, I'm looking for ease of achieving a nice piece of furniture.

I did like the looks of some of those other cutter heads but, I had a hard time justifying the cost of the Byrd for the amount of time I use the machine.

I have to admit that the loose inset coming off the cutter head is a bit worrisome so, hopefully it was an anonymity.   

 

[ccarrolladams]

Thanks guys,

Good information and very helpful.  I did order the Byrd with a new set of bearings installed and despite my initial posting complaining about the time to change planer knives (which I realize would be much quicker if I did it often), my real reason is to minimize tear out on ribbon mahogany, Claro walnut and rosewood.  I have had many occasions where my furniture piece was going through for the final cut and have a tear out ruin a very expensive of wood.

I am a hobbyist even though I did operate it as a business many years ago and at my age, I'm looking for ease of achieving a nice piece of furniture.

I did like the looks of some of those other cutter heads but, I had a hard time justifying the cost of the Byrd for the amount of time I use the machine.

I have to admit that the loose inset coming off the cutter head is a bit worrisome so, hopefully it was an anonymity.   

Jacko, one of the most important skills in woodworking is feeling the way the grain runs.

Yes, you did ruin some expensive wood, but all of us paid in damaged material, time and other ways to gain our skills and experience.

To be sure, the use of helical cutters on planers and jointers will reduce the consequences of not sensing the correct direction of the grain. Perhaps it is just as well that you already have experience with conventional knives.

Only you can place a value on your time. I suggest when you are confident in whatever brand of knives you select your frustration will degrease. For many using the jointer and planer is a necessary chore. I personally always felt being at one with those tools was very important to finding my bliss working with wood. My machines can be programed for cut setting which is displayed in decimal numbers. The speed of rotation can be programmed as can the feed on the planer. There are power drives for jointers. I use one when appropriate on my tilting arbor shaper, but my long experience with power fees has taught me that I need the feedback of the jointer as a ease lumber over that set of knives. It is the feedback directly to my hand that confirms I an running appropriately referenced by the grain, or I can feel I need to stop pushing, pull the work back, turn off the jointer motor and re-evaluate the direction of the grain.

Back in 2009 I knew I had found my ideal face frame maker just watching him at one with a very old jointer belonging to the shop where he also was renting space. By his skill and feel he could get better results from a machine that I would not try. So, you better believe that master cabinet maker is so much more productive on the Felder Format 4 we mutually selected. He is confident with that machine, but then he could obtain a beautiful result on any machine. Me, I need the Felder with the helical cutter head.

 

[jacko9]

Thanks guys,

Good information and very helpful.  I did order the Byrd with a new set of bearings installed and despite my initial posting complaining about the time to change planer knives (which I realize would be much quicker if I did it often), my real reason is to minimize tear out on ribbon mahogany, Claro walnut and rosewood.  I have had many occasions where my furniture piece was going through for the final cut and have a tear out ruin a very expensive of wood.

I am a hobbyist even though I did operate it as a business many years ago and at my age, I'm looking for ease of achieving a nice piece of furniture.

I did like the looks of some of those other cutter heads but, I had a hard time justifying the cost of the Byrd for the amount of time I use the machine.

I have to admit that the loose inset coming off the cutter head is a bit worrisome so, hopefully it was an anonymity.   

Jacko, one of the most important skills in woodworking is feeling the way the grain runs.

Yes, you did ruin some expensive wood, but all of us paid in damaged material, time and other ways to gain our skills and experience.

To be sure, the use of helical cutters on planers and jointers will reduce the consequences of not sensing the correct direction of the grain. Perhaps it is just as well that you already have experience with conventional knives.

Only you can place a value on your time. I suggest when you are confident in whatever brand of knives you select your frustration will degrease. For many using the jointer and planer is a necessary chore. I personally always felt being at one with those tools was very important to finding my bliss working with wood. My machines can be programed for cut setting which is displayed in decimal numbers. The speed of rotation can be programmed as can the feed on the planer. There are power drives for jointers. I use one when appropriate on my tilting arbor shaper, but my long experience with power fees has taught me that I need the feedback of the jointer as a ease lumber over that set of knives. It is the feedback directly to my hand that confirms I an running appropriately referenced by the grain, or I can feel I need to stop pushing, pull the work back, turn off the jointer motor and re-evaluate the direction of the grain.

Back in 2009 I knew I had found my ideal face frame maker just watching him at one with a very old jointer belonging to the shop where he also was renting space. By his skill and feel he could get better results from a machine that I would not try. So, you better believe that master cabinet maker is so much more productive on the Felder Format 4 we mutually selected. He is confident with that machine, but then he could obtain a beautiful result on any machine. Me, I need the Felder with the helical cutter head.

ccarrolladams,  I have experienced the feel of grain direction but, as you know on certain pieces of wood the grain goes in both directions and the face looks great.  If I was hand planing I might reverse the cut mid way but, on power machines you make sacrifices to efficiency so I'm looking to reduce the ill effects of "tree growth" - it's not perfect [wink]

Thanks for your insight [smile]

 

[jacko9]

Well, had the Shelix cutter head installed today and since I'm currently working with ribbon cut Honduras Mahogany I immediately noticed a great difference in eliminating tear out.  My old 12" Powermatic never sounded this quiet and even pushing through 12" wide oak boards with a few knots, it never skipped a beat.

I highly recommend this cutter head to anybody that wants to upgrade their old planer with single blades.

Jack

 

[Joe Jensen]

I have a PM100 planer with a Byrd head in it.  I used to have a PM66 jointer I started by changing from the stock PM cutterhead to a Tersa type.  It was good but the knives didn't last as long as I wanted. When I say the Byrd I decided to go with that for the PM100 planer.  Installation was a piece of cake.  You do need to make sure the cutterhead is perfectly parallel with the table AND the pressure bar AND the chipbreaker.  I still love the Byrd. So much that I switched the Tersa type head out for a Byrd on the PM66.  Later I upgraded that to a 12" SCMI and I upgraded that cutterhead to a Byrd too.  I will say that the Byrg heads requires more force to feed on the jointer, supposed to be because the Byrd has a knive in the stock all the time. 

I' ve never used a Byrd clone, the ones that Grizzly uses so I don't know if the straight knife versus the shear cut of the Byrd matters.  I will say that the Byrd cut is fantastic.

 

[alex946]

Some time Shelix use on your 8 "jointer. So far there are no signs blunt knives. There is a feeling that before the first turn knives to rework at least a dozen cubic meters of timber.

One of the knives was split when pulled after installation, and one is a little cleavage. Packing was not too good, perhaps it has been dropped in the delivery.

 

[JSands]

>Helical heads are where it is at.  Byrd heads are like a half way step.

Warner, can you explain this?    Half way to what?  I must be missing something.....

Interesting how on some machines, the cost of the helix head is quite dis proportional to the cost of straight blade replacements

 

[John Stevens]

Well, had the Shelix cutter head installed today

Congratulations Jacko.  If you like to use your jointer for tapering, you'll probably be installing one on that, too.

Regards,

John

 

[jacko9]

Well, had the Shelix cutter head installed today

Congratulations Jacko.  If you like to use your jointer for tapering, you'll probably be installing one on that, too.

Regards,

John

John,

I have solid carbide blades on my 8" jointer so, I probably won't be changing them out anytime soon but, thanks for the suggestion.  If I had high speed steel on that machine, I'd be ordering from Bryd right now.

Jack