Using Douglas Fir 2” x 4” studs

[Packard]

I’ve been making toys to be distributed for free to the needy for Christmas.

I have in my basement several kiln dried Douglas fir studs that I purchased before the summer. They are all straight and almost knot-free.

I am thinking of using these as blanks for some of the toys.  Typically they entail pieces 6” to 9” long.

From what I know, the main hit against using stud lumber for other purposes is the risk of warping.

Given that the studs I have were called “kiln dried”, and have remained straight and true for the last 6 months, and that the pieces I will use will be very short (6” - 9”) can I expect issues using that lumber for the toys. 

I’ve cut a couple of blanks and the grain looks nice with no checks or cracks.

Any predictions on this?

 

[live4ever]

Should be totally fine.  Plenty of kids toys are made from softwood such as pine…only concern would be the softness/durability.

 

[Tom the Remodeler]

Hi Packard,

You can review this wood article from the Wood Database regarding wood toxicity:https://www.wood-database.com/wood-articles/wood-allergies-and-toxicity/

The the page specifically for Douglas Fir:https://www.wood-database.com/douglas-fir/

Douglas Fir is a known mild irritant, my concern would be more along the lines of concern about the splinters being more likely to cause infection or sepsis. Not necessarily a concern for oneself, but worth considering if you're passing the toys along to third parties who may or may not recognize the risks....

 

[Packard]

My toys get packaged in a heavy duty, heat sealed, poly bag and is labeled.  For ages 3 and up.  Not suitable for teething children”.

Most of the toys were made from scrap pine or poplar.  I don’t have any scrap for the additional planned pieces.  So that prompted this thread.

 

[Packard]

Hi Packard,

You can review this wood article from the Wood Database regarding wood toxicity:https://www.wood-database.com/wood-articles/wood-allergies-and-toxicity/

The the page specifically for Douglas Fir:https://www.wood-database.com/douglas-fir/

Douglas Fir is a known mild irritant, my concern would be more along the lines of concern about the splinters being more likely to cause infection or sepsis. Not necessarily a concern for oneself, but worth considering if you're passing the toys along to third parties who may or may not recognize the risks....

In addition to the label, each piece is coated with SealCoat shellac which is an excellent vapor sealer.  Then a coat of water-based poly (which the manufacturer labels as “non-toxic”).  And finished with a bees wax mix that is intended for cutting boards. 

Additionally, each design was subjected to multiple drop tests.  And 4 of the designs were child tested (and parent observed).

Obviously, I did this to bring joy to the families.  I definitely did not want to bring any angst.

Hopefully, I have covered all bases. 

 

[woodferret]

My only problem with fir is that the grain binding is pretty low.  It can have a tendency to flake dramatically when processing, especially when dried even further than KD.  Probably the extra stresses incurred from drying.  Just be prepared some extra blanks and be ready to discard a few if they blow out.

Your duck body would likely be fine.  The wheels however, would probably loose a few chunks here and there.

 

[Packard]

My only problem with fir is that the grain binding is pretty low.  It can have a tendency to flake dramatically when processing, especially when dried even further than KD.  Probably the extra stresses incurred from drying.  Just be prepared some extra blanks and be ready to discard a few if they blow out.

Your duck body would likely be fine.  The wheels however, would probably loose a few chunks here and there.

I buy the wheels.  Very cheap—too cheap to bother making my own.  The quality has been excellent.

The 1/4” diameter dowels that I use as axles are not very good.  They are too big, or bigger than too big.  Or not round.  Or having a raised ridge running the length of several dowels (no doubt the draw die had a chip on the cutting edge.

Either they allow themselves to have an overly generous tolerance, or they don’t bother to check, or more likely they don’t care.

The axle “bearing” I can leave oversized so that the wheels can spin easily.  But the fit of the axle to the wheels has to be pretty good or the wheels won’t fit, or they will wobble, in the worst case, they will fall off.

I spend entirely too much time hand fitting the wheels to the axles.

 

[Cheese]

The 1/4” diameter dowels that I use as axles are not very good.  They are too big, or bigger than too big.  Or not round.  Or having a raised ridge running the length of several dowels (no doubt the draw die had a chip on the cutting edge.

Either they allow themselves to have an overly generous tolerance, or they don’t bother to check, or more likely they don’t care.

I spend entirely too much time hand fitting the wheels to the axles.

Consider running the dowels through a dowel plate to give them a uniform diameter.  Here's one from Lie-Nielsen but there are a lot of other ones out there.

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[Packard]

The 1/4” diameter dowels that I use as axles are not very good.  They are too big, or bigger than too big.  Or not round.  Or having a raised ridge running the length of several dowels (no doubt the draw die had a chip on the cutting edge.

Either they allow themselves to have an overly generous tolerance, or they don’t bother to check, or more likely they don’t care.

I spend entirely too much time hand fitting the wheels to the axles.

Consider running the dowels through a dowel plate to give them a uniform diameter.  Here's one from Lie-Nielsen but there are a lot of other ones out there.

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That is probably worthwhile.  Would I run the long pieces or the cut to length pieces?

 

[Cheese]

You could run either, it depends upon how far out of spec they are. If the diameter size is good and you only want to remove a small ridge that's pretty easy. It's when there are several features on the dowel you want to adjust and the dowels are only 1/4" diameter, that there could be some considerable bowing involved.

It's gotta be a better than what you have to do now.

Thinking a bit more...it could really be as simple as finding a different dowel supplier. Maybe then, there will be zero re-work involved.  [big grin]

I purchased some teak dowels I used as plugs from Midwest dowel and the diameter on those ran around ±.005" 

 

[Packard]

Ive bought the dowels from Lowes, Home Depot, Amazon and Bear Woods (the wheel supplier).

The dowels from Bear Woods were the best of the lot. 

www.bearwood.com

The 1/2” x 1-1/2” flat surface wheels were $0.195 each in large quantities—I bought 300.

I fully expected all the dowels to fit the wheels as I purchased them at the same time.  That might not be a realistic expectation.

I did design a simple jig to cut the dowels to short lengths safely and accurately (and with no tearout) on the table saw.

If anyone has a need to do the same, let me know and I will publish some photos and instructions.  Build time for the jig is about 10 minutes.  I use it on a table saw.  It would work as well on a radial arm saw or a a band saw.  I cannot see how it would be used on track saw, however. 

Tonight I’m going to drill a 1/4” hole in a piece of mild sheet steel about 0.030” thick.  I will run a file over the flat to remove any burrs.  It should be sharp enough to re-size a couple of dowels.  Of course mild steel is not going to last very long, but it will give me a sense of the utility.

By the way, Dutchess County Outreach, the people who will be distributing the toys picked up yesterday. 

People register for gifts.  Then volunteers call and ask details about the children (gender, age, interests, etc.), and then the volunteers pick out the gifts, wrap them and add a card. 

I produced about 70 toys, but I gave away about 10 to mothers who would give me feed back.  So about 60 toys to distribute.  The gal who picked up the toys examined them and said they would have no problems giving them away—all of the toys.

I am working on designs, but not making any new toys until I hear back from them after the holidays.

But thanks for the info.

I wanted to make some flower presses for older children, but I would have to make several purchases (plywood or melamine backed particle board.)  And the reason I was making toys was to give my back a break from lifting sheet goods. 

The flower presses are an easy build and I might make a few anyway.  Probably for ages 10 or 12 and up.

 

[Packard]

I made a dowel draw die from a piece of approximately 0.060” thick mild steel.  I drilled a 1/4” diameter hole and use a fine metal working file to smooth out the exit burrs. 

I only tried this on 1-7/8” long x 0.250” nominal diameter dowels.

I could not get them started by hand, but had to tap them into the hole using a soft face mallet. 

Then I could not push them the rest of the way by hand so I kept tapping.  I had trouble maintaining perpendicularity.  It took two passes to get a good fit in the wheel holes. 

But it worked. 

I can attach this to a piece of 3/4” thick hardwood to give greater depth and maintain perpendicularity.  I think drawing longer pieces through the die and then cutting to length makes more sense.  I’m going to try a few more pieces and then find a commercially made unit.  Though out of this piece of mild steel I can get about 20 holes.  So depending on how long the “die” stays sharp, that might prove to be the solution. 

Obviously the toy vehicles (pickup truck, Indy style race car, sports car, and 1930’s style coupe) all need wheels.  I do wonder if kids would play with the animal versions if they ran on feet instead of wheels.  This dog for instance:

 

[Cheese]

The use of a mallet is pretty normal. 

If you have a small arbor press, that may work well for short pieces.

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If you have a stout enough drill press that may also work well. I'd chuck the end of the dowel into the drill chuck to help stabilize the dowel and keep it perpendicular to the dowel plate.

 

[mkasdin]

Depends on the piece? If it’s near the pith that’s not good. If it has three to four growth rings per inch that’s not good. You could try palette wood but then you are spending time deconstructing. Pine is a more stable wood, hemlock Fir or SYP would also be good. Basically Fir falls into SPF category and is somewhat interchangeable. Pine is typically dimensionally stable.

 

[Packard]

Depends on the piece? If it’s near the pith that’s not good. If it has three to four growth rings per inch that’s not good. You could try palette wood but then you are spending time deconstructing. Pine is a more stable wood, hemlock Fir or SYP would also be good. Basically Fir falls into SPF category and is somewhat interchangeable. Pine is typically dimensionally stable.

Thanks for the reply.  Locally (Home Depot, Lowes, and a large local lumber yard) carry SYP and Douglas Fir (Lowes).

The Douglas Fir is straight and true with no twists and surprisingly no knots or one or two tiny ones per stud.  The other pine studs have dozens of tiny knots per piece and you have to pick and choose to get ones that were straight. 

The Douglas Fir (which I suspect might go missing with the tariffs) has a nice grain and a uniform color.

They radius the edges on studs.  I read that was for QC purposes. The inspectors used to have to measure the studs to see if they were full sized.  Now they only have to look; if any of the radii are missing, then the stud is undersized. 

I used to be able to get very nice (pine??) 1-1/2” x 1-1/2” stock with no knots and nice and straight.  I could join them in various configurations using 1/2” diameter dowels. 

But now, that stock has the four radii also.  So butt joints look stupid with the sharp end cuts and radiuses on the lengths.  Progress. (I guess.)

 

[squall_line]

If I want sharp-cornered pine at Menards, I go to the "board" section instead of the stud section.  It's also where I have to go if I want 1/2" instead of 3/4".

Not that it's any flatter or straighter, but at least it's not radiused.

 

[Packard]

If I want sharp-cornered pine at Menards, I go to the "board" section instead of the stud section.  It's also where I have to go if I want 1/2" instead of 3/4".

Not that it's any flatter or straighter, but at least it's not radiused.

That was where I was buying the sharp cornered pine. But it is now all radiused— and is the only stock there that has the radius.  I have not checked lately. 

I could make very nice constructions using that stuff.  Glue and screw the butt joints and wait for them to dry.  Then remove (one at a time) the screws and drill out for 1/2” diameter dowels.  Apply glue to the hole and tap in the dowel.  I drill the hole about 1/4” deeper than required and tap in the dowels until nearly flush. 

Alignment is guaranteed.  And I have full 1-1/2” depth on both pieces.  If I went with blind dowels, alignment would be more of a challenge and I would only get 1” depth on the cross pieces.  So stronger, faster to build and easier (no drilling jigs required).

I have about a dozen picture framers’ corner clamps, so assembly is easy too.  But now, I think I will have to rip the pieces from studs if I want sharp corners.

 

[Tom the Remodeler]

They radius the edges on studs.  I read that was for QC purposes. The inspectors used to have to measure the studs to see if they were full sized.  Now they only have to look; if any of the radii are missing, then the stud is undersized. 

My understanding is that most of the QC work is performed via optical (computer) systems, and that the radiused corners are to prevent damage to the boards and surrounding materials. Besides, if you've ever handled hundreds of studs in a given day, you'll appreciate the quality of life afforded by the radiused edges.

In terms of straightness, it'd important to remember that modern lumber concessions set aside for framing lumber are planted to maximize the strength of the finished stud, so the trees are planted in manner to grow as fast as possible, since a fast-growing softwood (Conifers) is significantly stronger than a slow growing softwood. Conversely for hardwoods (Angiosperms), an old-growth hardwood will be stronger than a plantation/farmed hardwood, it's a function of their biology and cellular structure. For framing, it's my understanding that entire concessions are planted for the express purpose of being harvested as a 2x4, while the next concession is designated for 2x6, and so on. It's a really neat industry (silviculture), highly developed with really exciting growth possibilities looking into the future.

 

[Packard]

They radius the edges on studs.  I read that was for QC purposes. The inspectors used to have to measure the studs to see if they were full sized.  Now they only have to look; if any of the radii are missing, then the stud is undersized. 

My understanding is that most of the QC work is performed via optical (computer) systems, and that the radiused corners are to prevent damage to the boards and surrounding materials. Besides, if you've ever handled hundreds of studs in a given day, you'll appreciate the quality of life afforded by the radiused edges.

In terms of straightness, it'd important to remember that modern lumber concessions set aside for framing lumber are planted to maximize the strength of the finished stud, so the trees are planted in manner to grow as fast as possible, since a fast-growing softwood (Conifers) is significantly stronger than a slow growing softwood. Conversely for hardwoods (Angiosperms), an old-growth hardwood will be stronger than a plantation/farmed hardwood, it's a function of their biology and cellular structure. For framing, it's my understanding that entire concessions are planted for the express purpose of being harvested as a 2x4, while the next concession is designated for 2x6, and so on. It's a really neat industry (silviculture), highly developed with really exciting growth possibilities looking into the future.

The information about the radii was taken from the Southern Pine trade association description.  There may be multiple benefits, but the one they cited was checking for undersized lumber. 

Lowes has a bin with off-cuts of studs.  About half have no radii on one side or another.  I guess the rest was from lumber that was longer than needed or had a defect in a portion of the stud. 

Addendum:  I just went to the Southern Pine Trade Association’s website and I see that they no longer list the QC as one of the benefits of adding the radii.  Back when I read that description, it was the only reason cited for adding the radii.

I guess someone in marketing decided that they should only list the benefits to the consumers, and not to the lumber mills. 

But be assured, back 10 or 15 years ago, when I read their website, the only benefit listed for the radii was speeding up the culling out of the undersized boards.  Some of the benefits currently listed make little or no sense.  Including the notion that it displaces the load more evenly.

In any case, they can change their minds on how to present this information, but they cannot change what I read.  The only reason originally given was to speed up the removal of undersized lumber.

 

[Cheese]

Addendum:  I just went to the Southern Pine Trade Association’s website and I see that they no longer list the QC as one of the benefits of adding the radii.  Back when I read that description, it was the only reason cited for adding the radii.

I guess someone in marketing decided that they should only list the benefits to the consumers, and not to the lumber mills. 

But be assured, back 10 or 15 years ago, when I read their website, the only benefit listed for the radii was speeding up the culling out of the undersized boards.  Some of the benefits currently listed make little or no sense.  Including the notion that it displaces the load more evenly.

In any case, they can change their minds on how to present this information, but they cannot change what I read.  The only reason originally given was to speed up the removal of undersized lumber.

I'm sure what you read was correct at the time...15 years ago vision systems were expensive both to purchase and implement. Back then the human was the "vision system" and the radius was the identifier.

Fast forward to today and the vision systems have come down in price, some basic ones are available for around $1000. It doesn't take many hours of use to justify installing one of those as opposed to hiring another person.

Heck...the floor scrubbing machines at Menards all run autonomously using a vision system and a form of AI.

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