VacSys under $100

[Cheese]

How does an air pump create a vacuum?  I've a smaller 12V air pump I'll probably never use but if it had to keep running that would probably be rather annoying although I'm not sure how loud the Festool Vac pump is.

An air compressor used as a vacuum pump is extremely annoying.

The basic premise is to discharge a large high pressure mass of air through a Venturi and that creates a suction...think carburetor. 

It produces a lot of lost energy and a lot of noise.

 

[Bob D.]

I would add a volume chamber to the setup to improve safety. A tank rated for vacuum of about 10 gallon capacity would do wonders and increase safety.

I would look at adding one of those 10 gallon portable air tanks into the system as a volume chamber. 10 gallons is about 2300 cubic inches, over 200x the volume of the typical vacuum clamping setup. It would take significant leakage to overcome this but eventually it will. The added volume just buys you some time before you lose your grip on your workpiece and stuff hits the fan.

Even a 5 gallon tank would make a huge difference. They can be had for less than $50, a pittance in the grand scheme of a $1500 clamping system. I am actually surprised Festool doesn't offer one as an add-on to their system. The other plus with having a volume chamber is that you get instantaneous full clamping force, not even a single second of delay before full clamping force is achieved.

Doing a quick search I found this which shows others have thought along the same line I have.
https://www.aawforum.org/community/index.php?threads/adding-a-reservoir-to-vacuum-system.11924/

Some examples of what others have done. Personally I would stay away from PVC examples. I know it's not the same as pressurizing PVC with air but it still scares me.
https://www.joewoodworker.com/veneering/visitorspress.htm

This could all be built into a spare Sys 5 or 6 with a Sys-MFT lid for an easily transported unit.

 

[afish]

The compressor already has a 4.3 gallon vacuum capacity. It wouldnt hurt to have more and is an easy add typically 3 or 4" pvc pipe with caps.    That is one of the upsides to using an old compressor typically there is already a tank on board.  When you start talking really small units like tire inflators or air brush that's a different story.  I used an old Senco 4.3 gallon unit that I used to run my trim guns off of at jobsites.  Now all my stuff is cordless so it was untouched for many years.  Its a great little compressor so I hated to toss it.  You can find second hand units for $50-75 

As far as it being annoying that's sort of a double edged sword. While yes it is louder than the Festool unit it also doesn't run non stop like the festool pump.  It cycles on and off as needed.  I have it set at to turn off around 25" of mercury but that's adjustable.  I think it kicks on around 21" but I would have to double check that. As long as you are not clamping anything to porous or have a leak in your vacuum bag, lines etc.  Once you have achieved your vacuum it hardly runs if at all. The turning the clamp on/off uses very little vacuum. If I had 2 extra pvc pipes worth of vacuum it would probably last all day and not run at all and thats using it all day.  They do sell a venturi but thats not what I used.  I simply reversed the air flow on the compressor took the tube off that used to go to the tank and put the muffler on it and where I took the muffler off I attached to the tank.  No extra venturi just some extra fittings, a filter and switches I also added a vacuum gauge.  She will suck down to 25" pretty quick from 25-28" it will get there but it does take it longer so its not really worth it.  Even at 20" that equals 10psi of force so the 8" pod is about 50sq inches that's about 500 pounds according to my math.  Feel free to correct that if I'm wrong on that.  It seems high but also seems right since I cannot budge the thing at all.  I can pick up the 8' long bench with the compressor and other stuff by the part and it doesn't slip or move a mm. It feels like the pivot or bench would give before the vacuum. 

The post was more about the clamp and less the compressor since it can use any good vacuum source some people even use old A/C compressors. 

 

[Bob D.]

I haven't tried this but for someone who didn't want to build the clamp pad it might be possible to modify one of these vacuum lifter intended for moving glass. They are available in various sizes and are not terribly expensive.

On this model you can see the handle is fastened to the pad with four screws which would make adding the swivel base easy.

The handle also houses the hand operated pump so all that would go away leaving only the pad.

They are available from many sources and I've found many sellers on Amazon and eBay.

Here's another version that might work even better due to the location of the tapped screw holes.https://www.amazon.com/dp/B07C1K1CSR/ref=emc_b_5_i

 

[afish]

Its funny you bring that up.  I started with one of those and you are correct the handle unscrews and actually on mine the 6mm tubing you see in my pics plugs directly into the rubber cup after removing the handle making it very easy to adapt However there are some draw backs too. 1. you are restricted to only one size pod narrow pieces could not be held. 2. most of the work is in designing and building the bracket to hold, tilt, and spin the piece.  The actual making of the vacuum pod is very simple and only requires some rubber cord.  So in the end it wasnt worth it. 

 

[Michael Kellough]

Its funny you bring that up.  I started with one of those and you are correct the handle unscrews and actually on mine the 6mm tubing you see in my pics plugs directly into the rubber cup after removing the handle making it very easy to adapt However there are some draw backs too. 1. you are restricted to only one size pod narrow pieces could not be held. 2. most of the work is in designing and building the bracket to hold, tilt, and spin the piece.  The actual making of the vacuum pod is very simple and only requires some rubber cord.  So in the end it wasnt worth it.

You can add a secondary pod of any shape you want. It just has to cover the original  pod on the underside and from there, any shape you want.

 

[Michael Kellough]

I read that linked thread about vacuum lathe chucks and that prompted the idea that with a small vacuum pod and non-porous wood so little volume of air needs to be evacuated that you could manually pull it out with some kind of foot operated pump. Also needs a check valve and bleed valve.

 

[cpw]

Even a 5 gallon tank would make a huge difference. They can be had for less than $50, a pittance in the grand scheme of a $1500 clamping system. I am actually surprised Festool doesn't offer one as an add-on to their system. The other plus with having a volume chamber is that you get instantaneous full clamping force, not even a single second of delay before full clamping force is achieved.

The Festool VAC-SYS pods can be clamped down to a non-porous surface, which does add to the volume in the system.  Certainly not 5 gallons, but the base of the pods does have more volume than the pump itself.

 

[afish]

Its funny you bring that up.  I started with one of those and you are correct the handle unscrews and actually on mine the 6mm tubing you see in my pics plugs directly into the rubber cup after removing the handle making it very easy to adapt However there are some draw backs too. 1. you are restricted to only one size pod narrow pieces could not be held. 2. most of the work is in designing and building the bracket to hold, tilt, and spin the piece.  The actual making of the vacuum pod is very simple and only requires some rubber cord.  So in the end it wasnt worth it.

     

You can add a secondary pod of any shape you want. It just has to cover the original  pod on the underside and from there, any shape you want.

If the second/top pod has to cover the base pod..Doesn't that interfere with having a narrow stock pod on top and defeat the purpose?  If the base cup is 6" and I want to vac. clamp a 4" drawer side, its an issue if the base pod is 6".  Sure, anything is possible and a spacer could be made and reduced down to the 4" to but it would have to add some height to clear router and and bits so they dont hit the base pod.  Then there is some stability flexing concerns with something like that.  The narrow pod I made is 3.5" plus you have to remember that anything you make is going to have to be sealed and sealed really GOOD.  The vacuum has a way of finding any and every leak possible. Every additional piece you add is a potential point for leaks. I guess if you started with a narrow pod then stacked wider on top that would work but its still adding space and additional seals and potentials for leaks plus there isnt a narrow suction cup made Im aware of.  Maybe Im missing something because it doesnt seem like a good solution to me.

 

[Michael Kellough]

Its funny you bring that up.  I started with one of those and you are correct the handle unscrews and actually on mine the 6mm tubing you see in my pics plugs directly into the rubber cup after removing the handle making it very easy to adapt However there are some draw backs too. 1. you are restricted to only one size pod narrow pieces could not be held. 2. most of the work is in designing and building the bracket to hold, tilt, and spin the piece.  The actual making of the vacuum pod is very simple and only requires some rubber cord.  So in the end it wasnt worth it.

     

You can add a secondary pod of any shape you want. It just has to cover the original  pod on the underside and from there, any shape you want.

If the second/top pod has to cover the base pod..Doesn't that interfere with having a narrow stock pod on top and defeat the purpose?  If the base cup is 6" and I want to vac. clamp a 4" drawer side, its an issue if the base pod is 6".  Sure, anything is possible and a spacer could be made and reduced down to the 4" to but it would have to add some height to clear router and and bits so they dont hit the base pod.  Then there is some stability flexing concerns with something like that.  The narrow pod I made is 3.5" plus you have to remember that anything you make is going to have to be sealed and sealed really GOOD.  The vacuum has a way of finding any and every leak possible. Every additional piece you add is a potential point for leaks. I guess if you started with a narrow pod then stacked wider on top that would work but its still adding space and additional seals and potentials for leaks plus there isnt a narrow suction cup made Im aware of.  Maybe Im missing something because it doesnt seem like a good solution to me.

Everything you say is correct, but my comment is also correct. As you point out it might not fulfill all the requirements of the specific task. The design of your pod is a good compromise.  [thumbs up]

 

[afish]

Yes, it's just a cheap deal.  I've a huge 50-75 gallon compressor in the garage which I ran 3/4" Copper in the garage to cool the air as I plan to spray at some point.  I have enough Copper to run a line back into the house and downstairs but that would be pressure rather than vacuum.  I also have a smaller tubular compressor I haul around whenever I use my air nailers ... perhaps that could be modified which could make for a neat experiment.

Why would you need to cycle the compressor unless the pressure leaks?  Couldn't it be setup to auto turn on like it does normally when pressure gets low?

Sorry, I missed this.  My compressor/vacuum pump is set to auto turn on/off just like a compressor does.  It kicks on when the vacuum reaches approx. 21" of mercury and turns back off at 24" but that's adjustable.  It works just like a regular compressor does.  I made it like that so it wouldn't run constantly like the festool unit and I wouldnt need to baby sit it. Since once its done the compressor will be relocated to another building. The vacuum doesnt need require big hose or tubing I just use 1/4 pneumatic tube its small, flexible, easy to route, and cheap.  Plus the push to connect fitting work good with it and makes adding, splicing very easy.

You will always use/lose some vacuum.  When clamping with the 8" pod it looks like I use about 1/8 or little more inch of mercury each time I remove a part and re-clamp.  when you release the part any vacuum in the line between the switch/valve and pod is exhausted.  The first vale I bought didnt exhaust the air so when I toggled the switch the part stayed stuck until it naturally lost enough vacuum and I could pull it off.  This took awhile.  Now the second you flip the valve the part releases instantly. Also with vacuum bagging you will never have 100% seal.  This way I could just turn on the pump and walk away when the bag starts loosing pressure the pump kicks on 21" is more than enough for any vacuum pressing.  According to what I read at 20" is about 10psi so for every square foot of surface area that equals 1440# pounds of pressure, vacuum is amazingly strong.  As I mentioned I can pick up the entire bench compressor and all by the part, its way more force than what's required for cabinet building.  The pump cycling can be mitigated with extra vacuum reserve it would just depend on how long you need to have your parts in a bag and how good your bag is sealed or how many parts you need to clamp a day.  The little 4 gallon compressor I have works good but if I did it again I would probably just add more reserve and trigger it manually if needed.  I use a little 3 channel RF remote from HD to turn on/off certain items.  Channel 3 will be for the vacuum, as long as you have a guage you could cycle it manually when low. The more reserve you have the less you will need to, obviously. When I get more time I will see how many times I can re-clamp a part before my pump cycles just using the clamp. I do plan to add a second pod for long stuff since when you have a long part clamped the ends get saggy and floppy. Having two in some T-track so you can slide them back and forth for longer panels will work well.  However I prefer the clamp on top of my bench as it adds some additional height and is at a more comfortable working height when edge banding.   

 

[BullSprig11]

Any chance of some plans or build pictures being included?

 

[afish]

Once I get everything sorted out.  I made a few more today slightly different to see if I prefer them another way.  If I offer anything I would probably offer them as a kit.  I would just run the cnc profiles and send the raw parts along with hardware list.  The buyer would clean up the parts and assemble.  Its easy to assemble but its hard to sell woodworking projects to woodworkers.  So I know better than try.  The cnc parts are small so they are easy to ship in a flat rate box from USPS. Everything else is easily purchased at Mcmaster carr or HD

 

[afish]

Any chance of some plans or build pictures being included?

Not sure if you mean for the compressor/vacuum or the vacuum clamp.  If you are talking clamp see other post above.  If you need help with the compressor you can start on joe woodworker or youtube.  Its very easy if you want a manual unit if you want it to auto cycle then Joe woodworker is the source for those parts and some good info.

 

[Goldserve]

Can you make a more detailed post on what it can do, like swivel, rotate, etc? I'd be interested in buying a kit! Sign me up!

 

[afish]

Yes when I have some more time I will try and do a video showing more details its still a work in progress. While it works great and is 90% there  Im still working on some details and trying to come up with a way to engineer it to fit as many end users as possible. 

Just to be clear yes the pod can rotate almost 180° the only thing that prevents a full 180 tilt would be the 1/4" vacuum hose, but once you have a part clamped it would be impossible to tilt anything 180 anyways so its made like that to be fully ambidextrous and not limit anyone from using it any which way.  The top spins 360° it can a actually spin endlessly.  The pods can be simply pulled out and swapped like the vac-sys

Just out of curiosity for those with the Festool vac sys what is your main use for it? edge-banding? Thats really my only use for this thing. I struggle to see myself using it for much else but WOW for applying and trimming edgebanding its a game changer. I would like to hear from others what they use theirs for. 

One of the updates I made today was to add 2 holes @ 96mm in the mounting plate for Parf anchor dogs.  This way I can just set it on top of the MFT cart and it would plug into mft holes. This way it wont move around since I prefer to use it on top of the bench but I know some others will prefer it side mounted.

The other thing Im struggling with is the detents.  I prefer them at 90° I dont have or see a need for them every 30° it actually causes me more trouble since I only use the 90° when there are more you end up fiddling with the plunger more.  Which is why I asked about how others use theirs.  I may be overlooking something.  For myself Im just making them at 90° but then there might be others that think they want or need more adjustment.

 

 

[Jack01]

Afish

This is great.

Can you share list of parts, used to build this.

Thanks

 

[Bob D.]

"Just out of curiosity for those with the Festool vac sys what is your main use for it? edge-banding? Thats really my only use for this thing. I struggle to see myself using it for much else but WOW for applying and trimming edgebanding its a game changer. I would like to hear from others what they use theirs for. "

I would think sanding would be one use for it. The entire surface is free from edge to edge. And all the edges are free just as they are for edge banding. So you could round over an edge or sand with no interference and quickly move from one piece to the next with no clamps to fuss with.

Carving might be another use. I think that would benefit from a ball and socket style mount between the pod and the base.

I think I mentioned this in another thread about vacuum systems but you can get a fairly inexpensive 45 liter/min vacuum pump for less than $250.

I have a smaller one made by LabFish which is only 10L/min and it works, but I should have gone for their 30L/minute version.

I went looking this morning for the LabFish 30L/min version and it is still available and less than $300.

I bought my 10L version back in Jan 2021 for less than $120.

They claim -0.085 MPa for the 30L model.
https://www.amazon.com/Portable-Diaphragm-Positive-Negative-Pressure/dp/B09K79P7Q2

30L/min is not a huge volume and compared to the venturi vacuum systems which I don't
know how much volume they generate. But the LabFish is >50 dB for the 30L version and
designed to run all day so I think something like this could work for vacuum bags too because
there once you draw the bag volume down you're moving very little volume, just need to
overcome in-leakage.

 

[AofD]

Thanks all for sharing your ideas!

 

[jasen]

I'm in the process of building this one:


Cheap plans and well detailed for the actual pods