Wera vs Bacho ratchet set on sale

[Birdhunter]

Do you guys have access to Snap-on Tool in the Netherlands? In the USA, Snap-On is the top grade brand of hand tool. They specialize in tool for automotive mechanics. They have a secondary brand that is for the less demanding buyer.

 

[AlexThePalex]

Do you guys have access to Snap-on Tool in the Netherlands? In the USA, Snap-On is the top grade brand of hand tool. They specialize in tool for automotive mechanics. They have a secondary brand that is for the less demanding buyer.

I've heard how Snap-On is regarded a top brand in America. They have a website in Dutch, so they must be active here, but I have never seen anything of them in any store.

 

[tbellemare]

Problem with the Knipex is that you have to hold the two beams together while you turn the bolt, so it is not for tasks that require a great deal of force.

I don't have a Knipex so I don't know for certain but it looks like it's configured the same way as typical tongue and groove pliers (Channellocks). With tongue and groove pliers, if you have them oriented correctly, with the longer handle receiving the turning force, you don't have to hold the other handle once the force loads up. If you have it on backward, it wants to open up. If you have it on in the correct direction, it tightens on the work just by pushing on the longer handle.

Tom

 

[Sparktrician]

Problem with the Knipex is that you have to hold the two beams together while you turn the bolt, so it is not for tasks that require a great deal of force.

I don't have a Knipex so I don't know for certain but it looks like it's configured the same way as typical tongue and groove pliers (Channellocks). With tongue and groove pliers, if you have them oriented correctly, with the longer handle receiving the turning force, you don't have to hold the other handle once the force loads up. If you have it on backward, it wants to open up. If you have it on in the correct direction, it tightens on the work just by pushing on the longer handle.

Tom

I concur with Tom.  When used as Tom mentions, the Knipex pliers are self-tightening.  Used backwards, they're self-loosening.  (Don't ask how I know...)  [embarassed] 

 

[elfick]

I've heard how Snap-On is regarded a top brand in America. They have a website in Dutch, so they must be active here, but I have never seen anything of them in any store.

Apparently Bahco is Snap-On... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bahco
"Bahco is a Swedish brand within the hand tool industry, which is now part of the Snap-on owned company, SNA Europe."

 

[AlexThePalex]

I don't have a Knipex so I don't know for certain but it looks like it's configured the same way as typical tongue and groove pliers (Channellocks). With tongue and groove pliers, if you have them oriented correctly, with the longer handle receiving the turning force, you don't have to hold the other handle once the force loads up. If you have it on backward, it wants to open up. If you have it on in the correct direction, it tightens on the work just by pushing on the longer handle.

This wrench is indeed like the tongue and groove pliers, that's where it evolved from.

I just played around with the new Knipex and the two tongue and groove pliers I have (also by Knipex), the new type does seem to be self tightening, but the standard tongue and groove pliers do not. They want to open up no matter which direction I turn.

But as soon as I release force on the new type, it drops off the nut. Everything moves on these pliers. The Bahco just stays fixed like it's one solid piece of metal.

Apparently Bahco is Snap-On... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bahco
"Bahco is a Swedish brand within the hand tool industry, which is now part of the Snap-on owned company, SNA Europe."

That's news to me. But it just means Snap-On owns Bahco, and they're still two separate brands with their own line of tools and their own separate quality standards.

 

[andvari]

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This one, standard adjustable wrench. Jaws are set with a worm wheel, once set they don't move.

This is the key to me. I threw away all of my adjustable wrenches because they never maintained their settings while being used. They would loosen, and then start rounding the nut. A complete pain. Admittedly they were cheap tools; I never knew it was possible to get a "quality adjustable wrench". It seemed like an oxymoron.

I now own a Knipex. However if the Bahco adjustable wrenches don't lose their setting that's a whole different ball game. I'll probably try one.

 

[tbellemare]

At risk of belaboring the point, and that is not my intent so I apologize in advance if my intentions are misconstrued, but the concepts are completely different.

An adjustable wrench is, at best, a variable open-end wrench. Where I come from, the so-called, "standard" for adjustable wrenches was from Crescent. Hence, we call them "Crescent wrenches". It has a fixed gap, which is dependent on how tight the operator can get it to the flats of the work using the thumb wheel that is integral to the worm gear adjuster. Wiggling the wrench back and forth on the work, while applying pressure against the worm gear thumb wheel, will allow the operator to get it a little tighter with each wiggle. But that's all. It never gets any tighter.

That's why the corners can get rounded, though in my personal experience, they work about as well as most open end wrenches, "in the right hands".

SnapOn came up with some open end wrench improvements about a decade ago and implemented them in their line. If I remember correctly, they made a sort of real shallow elliptical lobe to spread the force so it wasn't all on the apex of the fastener.

With the continuous tightening of a tongue and groove pair of pliers, it almost can't come loose if used in the correct direction. All it can do is slip on something slippery.

The reason most tongue and groove pliers have teeth is because they are generally designed to turn pipes and sort of dig in. The cheap ones tend to have teeth that lose their sharp edges too quickly and become far less effective. I have an old bicycle tube and some old tongue and groove pliers that I use quite effectively together on fancy plumbing to protect the surface.

There are others that have no teeth and they are considered specialty items that are likely to be used for fasteners or sheet metal. Apparently, that's what Knipex is selling and I think what they did to improve the concept is that they figured out a geometry that keeps the jaws parallel as they tighten if you adjust it within certain tolerances. Also there's the push button adjustment mechanism and somehow they made it "self-ratcheting".

I have done a lot of electrical work and plumbing for an amateur. I get called on by my friends and associates regularly when they can't get a pipe loose or they are scared to break something. My two best friends are good Channellocks and good pipe wrenches for getting pipes loose. It's common to load up one against the other and rap one with a hammer several times. That's the same as an impact wrench/driver. The worst thing one can do is to just load up one rotational mechanism without a solid back up. That is asking to break something... Squeezing one against the other is the standard.

As I stated above, I don't have a Knipex but I plan to get some and report back as to whether or not my observations and assumptions are correct.

Tom

 

[AlexThePalex]

This is the key to me. I threw away all of my adjustable wrenches because they never maintained their settings while being used. They would loosen, and then start rounding the nut. A complete pain. Admittedly they were cheap tools; I never knew it was possible to get a "quality adjustable wrench". It seemed like an oxymoron.

It's all in the quality and hardness of the steel. Cheap wrenches are made of soft steel, they wear quickly and get sloppy. Good ones are made of very hard steel and machined to a tighter tolerance so they don't get sloppy. 

I now own a Knipex. However if the Bahco adjustable wrenches don't lose their setting that's a whole different ball game. I'll probably try one.

Are you not satisfied with the Knipex? Knipex is known to be very good quality. It is considered the No 1 brand in Germany for pliers.

 

[andvari]

Hi Alex

Right now I have only one adjustable Knipex. It's a nice tool, but the Bahco wrenches cover a wider range of sizes, and more economically, so it's worth my while to try at least one.

 

[AlexThePalex]

At risk of belaboring the point, and that is not my intent so I apologize in advance if my intentions are misconstrued, but the concepts are completely different.

I have no problem hearing peoples' viewpoints.

An adjustable wrench is, at best, a variable open-end wrench. Where I come from, the so-called, "standard" for adjustable wrenches was from Crescent. Hence, we call them "Crescent wrenches". It has a fixed gap, which is dependent on how tight the operator can get it to the flats of the work using the thumb wheel that is integral to the worm gear adjuster. Wiggling the wrench back and forth on the work, while applying pressure against the worm gear thumb wheel, will allow the operator to get it a little tighter with each wiggle. But that's all. It never gets any tighter.

Not sure what kind of wrenches you are used to, but I can set my Bahco wrench so tight it's just like a fixed wrench.

With the continuous tightening of a tongue and groove pair of pliers, it almost can't come loose if used in the correct direction. All it can do is slip on something slippery.

My experience with these wrenches is they slip constantly. They don't grab the flat of the bolt, they grab the corners. One little lapse in your grip on the handles and it slips.

I have an old bicycle tube and some old tongue and groove pliers that I use quite effectively together on fancy plumbing to protect the surface.

You do have to put something in there to protect the surface. I have an adjustable wrench with hard plastic on the jaws for that.

As I stated above, I don't have a Knipex but I plan to get some and report back as to whether or not my observations and assumptions are correct.

Most of your observations are correct, I only do not understand what you mean with self-ratcheting, there's no ratcheting on this wrench. You push the button to unlock it so you can adjust how wide it is. And then you can move the handles to move the jaws a couple of millimeters to grab the nut.

 

[sae]

Any open end wrench will slip at high torque, even more so an adjustable wrench. You're relying solely on the stiffness of the metal (and adjustable mechanism) to avoid destroying the corners of your fastener. With the Pliers wrench, you can apply a very significant amount of clamping force. For their standard sizes (and maybe even the XL), it's a 10:1 lever advantage, so if you can apply 40 lbs of grip strength, you're gripping that bolt/nut with 400 lbs of force. That's just simply something you can't replicate with an adjustable wrench or open ended wrenches.

If you're releasing your grip while you're applying torque, then yeah, it'll slip. Don't release your grip.

As for the ratcheting, the idea is your open the handles slightly and clamp down again while your tool is still on the part. No need to remove it from part and try to find where your wrench fits again.

 

[AlexThePalex]

Any open end wrench will slip at high torque, even more so an adjustable wrench.

Uhm, no. Not without something breaking. If you have a wrench of the proper size for the nut, it should not slip unless you either deform the nut or the jaw of the wrench.

If you're releasing your grip while you're applying torque, then yeah, it'll slip. Don't release your grip.

Easier said than done.

As for the ratcheting, the idea is your open the handles slightly and clamp down again while your tool is still on the part. No need to remove it from part and try to find where your wrench fits again.

Aha, I see, thanks for the explanation. Seems like an excellent opportunity to round over your corners.

 

[greg mann]

IIRC, I believe Bahco was once owned by Sandvik, not that that is relevant to this thread. I do have the smallest Knipex pliers and like them a lot. Ironically, I bought them at a SnapOn retail store which is no longer in existence. It is the only SnapOn retail store I have ever been aware of as they are known for their independent dealers that sell from vans. Their marketing in Europe could be different. They do make fine tools. The innovation referred to earlier was called 'flank-drive' and the tools engaged the flats just short of the corners instead of directly on the corners. It has been widely emulated over the last fifty years, in open end, box, and socket wrenches.

I also have a Bahco adjustable that is a very nice wrench. It has a reversible jaw that has teeth on one side at a wedging angle that acts similar to a pipe wrench. It is quite effective on smooth surfaces.

 

[Sjur]

Alright, I've been visiting family, and came back to read this many responses to a simple question. Interesting!

I talked with my father, and it turned out he actually got a pair of every size of the bacho adjustable wrenches that he doesn't really use for anything than backup, so he said he could split them with me.

As for the debate going on, I've never experienced the bacho wrenches rounding over a nut. The wheel you adjust with is really tight, so there isn't any room for wiggle. The other brands I've tried does wiggle, and doesn't grip the head nearly as good as the Bacho I've used at work. The Bacho quite simply, is dead on.

I think I'll manage with the Bacho's, as the Knipex was a little pricy (it does look nice though). Perhaps something to buy in the distant future.

 

[sae]

Any open end wrench will slip at high torque, even more so an adjustable wrench.

Uhm, no. Not without something breaking. If you have a wrench of the proper size for the nut, it should not slip unless you either deform the nut or the jaw of the wrench.

That is not true at all. Open end wrenches slip all the time from the jaws spreading elastically. It's why you see flare nut wrenches (I think you call them line wrenches over the pond) are specifically made thicker in order to counteract this. They're still never as good as a boxed/closed end wrench though.

The Germans, being German, like to quantify everything, here is everything quantified for you nicely in tests. Knipex claims to test their pliers wrenches to 400 NM without slipping (which I guess they could be lying about, I haven't seen the test).

Aha, I see, thanks for the explanation. Seems like an excellent opportunity to round over your corners.

You don't clamp down when you're on the corners, silly.  [tongue]

Sounds like you've made up your mind already though. Myself, I've never reached for an adjustable wrench since. It's very much superior in my experience and applications.

 

[Sjur]

Oooh! I almost forgot to mention: The wera ratchets arrived! They came in a neat little box, but the Zyklop cardboard box inside was a little dinged up. I opened the Zyklop package, and inside was a nice, undamaged metal case, with rubber flaps to lock the case. The case felt very solid.

The extenders in the Zyklop kit have locks (red/green button). The green button pushes in easily, but the red is a lot harder to push in. Not really a big deal. Perhaps I'm doing it wrong?

The Tool-Check PLUS is a well thought out design. My only concern is that the holder that keeps the screwdriver in, looks a little too fragile.

Either way, I'm happy with both kits!