What do you look for in a carpenter?

Kev

Member
Joined
Nov 7, 2011
Messages
7,698
I'm toying with either making myself or engaging a professional to make a front window for my house. The current window is rotten and the glass is cracked, etc.

Because it won't be the "end state" an is a "one off" for me, I'm not particularly passionate about spending my time on it ... hence considering getting someone just to "get it done".

I visited a local joinery to discuss making and installing the window and it's triggered this subject "What do you look for in a carpenter?"

The one I visited was a mess, crap everywhere, office was a pig sty, timber outside in the wet under tarps. Now this guy did have a few Festools in his workshop .. but that really didn't redeem him for me.

Obviously the quality of the work and the price are the REAL considerations when you are seeking a finished product, but my OCD plays heavily in my thinking.

To round the story off, the price quoted was extortionate - so this guy is out of the running anyway!

Realistically we could ask the question of "what do you look for" about any trade, but I think it's relevant here simply because there's professionals on the FOG that could glean some insight from the way prospective customers think.

To put a fence on the far side of the spectrum .. I probably wouldn't have walked into a joinery where there were several $100K CNC's and operators in lab coats for a quote either [wink]
 
Personally I look for competence, in any tradesmen I want to work on my house. But, to be honest, I'll do my research and look at some of their previous work before I even invite them to give me a quote, so I know they're competent.

Other things I look for is a basic level of intellect, aside from their hands-on skills. I don't expect a rocket-scientist, but someone who can converse properly and shows a basic written competence in the quotes they provide. Years ago there was a bit of an attitude/joke in the UK that if you were a bit thick, you either joined the armed services or learned a trade. Now, whilst this is obviously gross stereotype, it's surprising how often the older generation of tradesmen have no education beyond their trade.  If things go wrong or there's some complex problem or solution required, I don't want to be conversing with some monosyllabic idiot.

I got caught a few years ago with a bricklayer who was very good and came with good recommendations, but wasn't the sharpest tool in the box. We hit some unexpected snags with the work he was doing and he just didn't have the intelligence or social skills to work through it in a professional manner. He was too nervous to come to me about problems and discuss the options and when I approached him about the possible workarounds he took it as criticism and became introverted and passively aggressive.

Tools are also a big thing I look for. I don't care which brand they use, but if every tool they use is 20+ years old or old fashioned, I do question why they haven't invested back some of their profits into keeping their inventory up-to-date and moving with the times in terms of modern time/labour saving tools. I met a carpenter who thought a multi-tool was a gimmick and a toy, but was happy to butcher joists with auger bits, a blunt chisel and mallet rather than the neat cuts a £100 multitool could produce.
 
bobfog said:
Personally I look for competence, in any tradesmen I want to work on my house. But, to be honest, I'll do my research and look at some of their previous work before I even invite them to give me a quote, so I know they're competent.

Other things I look for is a basic level of intellect, aside from their hands-on skills. I don't expect a rocket-scientist, but someone who can converse properly and shows a basic written competence in the quotes they provide. Years ago there was a bit of an attitude/joke in the UK that if you were a bit thick, you either joined the armed services or learned a trade. Now, whilst this is obviously gross stereotype, it's surprising how often the older generation of tradesmen have no education beyond their trade.  If things go wrong or there's some complex problem or solution required, I don't want to be conversing with some monosyllabic idiot.

I got caught a few years ago with a bricklayer who was very good and came with good recommendations, but wasn't the sharpest tool in the box. We hit some unexpected snags with the work he was doing and he just didn't have the intelligence or social skills to work through it in a professional manner. He was too nervous to come to me about problems and discuss the options and when I approached him about the possible workarounds he took it as criticism and became introverted and passively aggressive.

Tools are also a big thing I look for. I don't care which brand they use, but if every tool they use is 20+ years old or old fashioned, I do question why they haven't invested back some of their profits into keeping their inventory up-to-date and moving with the times in terms of modern time/labour saving tools. I met a carpenter who thought a multi-tool was a gimmick and a toy, but was happy to butcher joists with auger bits, a blunt chisel and mallet rather than the neat cuts a £100 multitool could produce.

[member=60286]bobfog[/member]

EXACTLY!!!

The fellow I met with had a KAPEX, but when I quizzed him about it he said "oh, you mean the Festool". No Domino in sight, but an old RS2 that I doubt had ever been connected to DC. Ready for dispatch frames for the glazier with suspicious looking fill where you'd expect to see either nothing or the evidence of tenons (so I'm guessing  covered cheap screws).

I have a HUGE resentment in parting with $'s where the person is taking me for a ride.
 
Site carpenter.
Workshop Joiner

So for a start I'd be looking for a joiner to make windows, not a carpenter.

Might be regional language thing though.
 
I'll do them for you [member=13058]Kev[/member] no charge...
If you get the materials and cover the travelling expenses!
Couldn't manage till our winter and reckon it would take me a couple of weeks.  [cool]
 
This is an interesting thread. I am a carpenter by trade and also a self taught cabinet and furniture maker. I'm self employed and I try to put myself in the customer's shoes.

I agree with what's been shared so far. I pay attention to my customer's remarks and general demeanour to help me know what matters to them so I can continue to improve. It's a potentially dangerous question, but sometimes at the end of a larger project I'll ask what could have been done better.

I've had many people comment that will written (typed is best) quotes and invoices along with prompt responses to emails and phone messages is always appreciated and fosters confidence in their contractor. Taking the time to understand what they want and work through the various options let's them know that their project matters. I try to educate my customers so that they can make informed decisions, it takes time but it's worth it. An enthusiastic attitude and zero foul language also contributes to professionalism.

A clean and well organized work site and/or shop, office and vehicle are also noticed by many and these too inspire confidence. Nearly all of my customers comment on the neat jobsite and organized tools. It's nice that all of these simple things are noticed and appreciated, it's too bad that it isn't necessarily the norm.

It goes without saying that the work has to be of good quality and priced fairly.

j
 
demographic said:
Site carpenter.
Workshop Joiner

So for a start I'd be looking for a joiner to make windows, not a carpenter.

Might be regional language thing though.

[member=51145]demographic[/member] really?

So that you're not completely confused .. a carpenter is simply a person that makes things with wood. It's the broader of the skill description.

If you read my post you would have noticed that I specifically said "joinery" in relation to searching for someone to make windows. Not a great mental leap to consider that a joiner may work in a joinery.

There is no specificity in the terms "carpenter" and "joiner" that dictates that a carpenter works on a site and a joiner does not. So if it's a regional thing, it's your region and not the rest of the world. Joiner simply tends to be a a refined subset of skills typically targeting cabinetry, doors, windows, etc.

Ready, shoot, aim? [wink]
 
Try hitting google with the terms Carpentry and Joinery.
In amongst the answers you should find this and the main reason carpentry even has Joinery tagged onto the course name is so the carpenters have a better understanding of shops practices.

In the UK, an apprentice of wood occupations could choose to study bench joinery or site carpentry and joinery. Bench joinery is the preparation, setting out, and manufacture of joinery components while site carpentry and joinery focus on the installation of the joinery components, and on the setting out and fabrication of timber elements used in construction.
 
Incorrect, Kev. You won't find a Carpenter building joinery in a workshop, and you won't find a Joiner framing a house.
 
Linbro said:
Incorrect, Kev. You won't find a Carpenter building joinery in a workshop, and you won't find a Joiner framing a house.

This is getting stupid !!!

[member=14551]Linbro[/member] Where on earth have I suggested that a joiner is framing a house??? I haven't. Why are you trying to put words in my mouth? Further, a joiner does typically work in a joinery, but there's no laws of physics that stops a joiner taking his portable gear and working anywhere he likes. It's the act of performing joinery that makes a joiner a joiner.

Also, have I at any point in this thread said I walked into a joinery and spoke with a carpenter? NO!!! BTW, I also doubt that if a carpenter walked into a workshop that he'd instantly vaporise. [blink]

Why are you and demographic getting so confused over a very simple situation description and an even simpler question about the trade that would most typically be in question by prospective customers?

People half reading posts and preferring to try and criticise rather that contribute ... awesome [mad]

This thread was a real waste of time!
 
Kev said:
Linbro said:
Incorrect, Kev. You won't find a Carpenter building joinery in a workshop, and you won't find a Joiner framing a house.

This is getting stupid !!!

[member=14551]Linbro[/member] Where on earth have I suggested that a joiner is framing a house??? I haven't. Why are you trying to put words in my mouth? Further, a joiner does typically work in a joinery, but there's no laws of physics that stops a joiner taking his portable gear and working anywhere he likes. It's the act of performing joinery that makes a joiner a joiner.

Also, have I at any point in this thread said I walked into a joinery and spoke with a carpenter? NO!!! BTW, I also doubt that if a carpenter walked into a workshop that he'd instantly vaporise. [blink]

Why are you and demographic getting so confused over a very simple situation description and an even simpler question about the trade that would most typically be in question by prospective customers?

People half reading posts and preferring to try and criticise rather that contribute ... awesome [mad]

This thread was a real waste of time!

Joiners definitely work in a joinery shop, they definitely don't do site work. I once saw a joiner spontaneously combust when he tried to enter a hard hat zone. Similarly I once saw a site carpenter who made the unfortunate mistake of walking too close to a joinery shop on his way to a job site and all the joiners ran out and ripped him to pieces with their bare hands, like a pack of wolves. True story.

 
I was just pointing out the difference between the two trades, because they are two separate trades, and the trade in question is 'Joiner'. No need to get so excited.
BTW, I'm not confused about anything.
 
Kev said:
Realistically we could ask the question of "what do you look for" about any trade, but I think it's relevant here simply because there's professionals on the FOG that could glean some insight from the way prospective customers think.

It's a great question, and as a customer, I'd like to share my personal thoughts if it helps others.

TL;DR version - be active online, show your work, know your stuff, have a neat and tidy workplace, keep your promises.

When I'm looking for a tradesman, there are two unique situations that will possibly send me off in different directions, and one that then brings it all back together.

The first is for trades where you can "see" the type and quality of the work. Carpentry and joinery are some great examples of this, but there are others like painting and decorating, kitchen fitting etc. These are the trades for me where most of the quality can be seen visually either in person or through photos of completed or in-progress work.

If I don't already know someone with the particular skills, my search for these type of trades will usually start with asking my online buddies for recommendations. Clearly not all of them will be appropriate depending on the job because location will play a key part in some tasks, but I generally get some good advice and some directions to investigate. The very next step is then to look at their online and social presence. If they're active online, engaging with customers and fellow trades alike, learning, asking questions, offering advice and showing off their work, they get a tick in my book. It's a good sign that they're proud of what they do and that they don't have to hide from the comments of disgruntled customers.

So for those, I'll then contact them electronically, asking qualification questions about their work, telling them about the project, requesting availability etc. If all the right things fall into place, then I'll phone them and arrange to meet to discuss things further.

The second type of trade for me is things like electricians and plumbers. A lot of their work is "hidden" and photos don't show off their work quite as well. I've found they tend to be less active socially online. I guess this is because you find, for example, a lot of painters talking about paint, about brushes and rollers; about the tools that help them to improve their game. For electricians, this sort of chat is less. Sure they talk about measurement instruments etc., but much of their skill comes from technical knowledge that is difficult to share socially and what prospective customer wants to see pictures of your cabling? (Except me!)

So for these people, I tend to reach out to local networks to find them. I'm quite lucky that I now have great relationships with an awesome electrician and an excellent plumber, and both were found through local recommendations. Their work is superb. They are technically knowledgeable, but they also have a huge pride in their work. My electrician is so technically competent it scares me. He doesn't just use snips to size galvanised channel protecting cables, he files and folds over the ends so if there's ever a need to pull a new cable or repair an existing one, it should be much easier and won't snag. My plumber cleans all his joints, bends pipe like it's an art form, and labels everything for ease of future identification.

If they didn't do these things, the electricity would still be on and the water would still be flowing, and I'm sure they could complete work more quickly and possibly cheaper, but I'm willing to pay a little more to see this quality of work and to have people around me that take that sort of pride in what they do.

Clearly some trades can be delivered from afar (making windows or furniture) and some need to be delivered on-site (electrical work) and that also plays its part. Which brings me back to my final point. When I meet you in person, either when you visit me or when I visit you, have a clean and safe workplace that again shows your pride in what you do. Don't be offended if I ask to look in the back of your van, because I feel that tells me a lot about how you'll leave my house. Don't worry about sawdust on floors and "work in action", that's not what I mean. But if I see hand tools scattered on the floor and power tools that clearly aren't being maintained, I'll be going elsewhere.

Finally, if you say you'll email me a quote in the next couple of days, make sure you do. Or if you're coming to see me on Saturday at 4:00pm, come and see me on Saturday at 4:00pm. I don't want to phone you at 4:30pm to have you tell me that you've had some problems and won't be able to get round to me. I understand these things happen, but I expect a call before 4:00pm to tell me and to give us an opportunity to renegotiate our commitment to each other.

And if you've told me something will take five days, make sure it does. If something happens that throws those timings into question, discuss it with me early so we can jointly decide what the best course of action is. Don't start on Monday and plough on until Friday and *then* let me know you'll need to come back on Monday to finish up, even if that hasn't changed the price. I have plans too.

So, I know that was long, but I hope that's been useful to at least some people.

In summary, be active online, show your work, know your stuff, have a neat and tidy workplace, keep your promises.
 
Linbro said:
I was just pointing out the difference between the two trades, because they are two separate trades, and the trade in question is 'Joiner'. No need to get so excited.
BTW, I'm not confused about anything.

[member=14551]Linbro[/member] it seems you may be confused because the subject says "What do you look for in a carpenter?". If you did read the initial post you would understand that from looking at the mess in a joinery I was visiting to get a quote on a window prompted me to think about tradesmen and therefore ask the question about carpenters as they are the common FOG professionals that would typically interact with your typical home owner / prospective customer.

Maybe I went from background story to question without spelling out that I am not asking the question "What do you look for in a joiner because the average person wouldn't be walking into a joinery" ... assuming people could join the dots without getting lost. Both yourself and demographic seem to think this is a debate about the classification of trades ... it is not. Other members seem to have understood the background and the question without any trouble.
 
[member=11629]GarryMartin[/member] awesome response.

I actually think I've developed a bit of a nervous twitch when I hear or read the word "plumber". The next one I get that rips me off is going to be buried in my garden [sad]
 
Back
Top