What's the point of retail stores?

[Crispy]

WIth the 2 stores that hold stock of festool up here, neither really know much about things ( the first hose i purchased i was told by thte sales assistant 'they'll both fit, it comes down to cost' - i now know better and should have gotten the 36mm hose).
I could be wrong, but im not sure they would let you test things... especially the kapex.
And they dont discount anything for fear of festool finding out and then losing that brand from that shop. I found a ct cyclone with a $75 off on the floor, i didnt need it at the time it was a want, they panicked, told me they couldnt honour the price, so i left on the counter.
We apparently do have a festool rep for up here, but ive never seen him/her, end up watching sedge tools to learn.
I normally try to purchase locally, but when they dont have what i want in stock, or it will be in the next monthly festool order, its just as easy to go direct and have it delivered to my house.

 

[Cypren]

Let me reassure you that you dodged a bullet not getting that cyclone. It works fine for small tools that don’t need a lot of suction (like sanders), but the hit to the airflow it imposes on your CT is absolutely enormous. About 50% airflow loss versus using a direct 36mm hose if I remember correctly. If you search around here on the forum, I did some anemometer measurements on it a few years back and posted the numbers here.

 

[Crispy]

Let me reassure you that you dodged a bullet not getting that cyclone. It works fine for small tools that don’t need a lot of suction (like sanders), but the hit to the airflow it imposes on your CT is absolutely enormous. About 50% airflow loss versus using a direct 36mm hose if I remember correctly. If you search around here on the forum, I did some anemometer measurements on it a few years back and posted the numbers here.

I remember reading that thread, which made me keep looking for comparisons, and alternatives, but they just dont look as pretty
I did recently find a you tubes vid that showed ct-va against a couple of other brands, ive been looking at the lo-pro ever since for when i get a second shop vac, or upgrade my work one to cordless.

 

[leakyroof]

Was that Danny as your original REP? Or someone else?. And yes ,having the sweet spot of knowledgeable Sellers, and the drop-in of the Regional Rep at the right time can really boost Festool Sales and Product knowledge for Retailers and Buyers. I was SUPER spoiled to have both for a number of years, which explains how much easier it was to talk myself into more Festool purchases...

I didn't hang out with Danny too much, when he was in town, he spent time with Retailers like Wood World Staff or they'd head out to talk to larger Commerical Accounts. But for the time I was around him, it's as you mentioned. I also remember him patiently talking with a jerk at Berlands House of Tools out in Palatine area. Danny was doing a Festool Demo, I walked in to buy something, unaware that he was going to be there. The guy hassling him had no intention of buying any Festool, but yet couldn't leave Danny alone to do his demo without constantly harping on how expensive Festool's were, and how they weren't worth the money.
Danny kept his cool, went right on with what he was doing. I was impressed, not sure I'd be able to handle that idiot with as much grace as Danny wielded that day.
Last Demo that I remember was a special one, the revised Planex was coming out, and I got to play with the Pre-Production Model. The Randon Orbit change from the then current Rotary Action of the old Planex, and the added LED worklights were really nice. Didn't have the money to even think of trading up from my Gen 1 Planex, but it was still fun to try it out.

 

[Cypren]

I remember reading that thread, which made me keep looking for comparisons, and alternatives, but they just dont look as pretty
I did recently find a you tubes vid that showed ct-va against a couple of other brands, ive been looking at the lo-pro ever since for when i get a second shop vac, or upgrade my work one to cordless.

My impression is that the Oneida and Clearvue (R.I.P.) Systainer cyclones have significantly better performance than the CT-VA because they're real cyclonic separators rather than a Thien baffle design, but I don't have either one and have never been able to directly test them. I've stuck with the CT-VA, but I don't get nearly as much use out of it as I think I would if it had better performance. I almost always use a connection straight to the CT when using the CSC SYS 50 or the Kapex, for example, but tools like those that produce a bunch of chips are exactly where you would most want a cyclonic separator to save on bags!

It really feels like an unfortunate case where Festool chose form over function. It looks great, and the ability to stack systainers on top of the unit is nice (I usually keep the installer hand tool kit on top for quick access), but every time I look at it, I just think, "you had ONE job..."

 

[luvmytoolz]

@Cypren I run a few Dust Deputies and they are a game changer. I cut down a large gas tank to use with one of the DD's hooked up to a Festool Midi for my CNC machine, and the time it saves on cleaning out bags is phenomenal.

I also have one for my router table, as well as for general work. Worth their weight in gold!

I might add I did loads of research before buying my first DD, and in every test or review I saw, the DD always came out on top. And that's been my experience over the years.

 

[woodferret]

The tall DDs definitely have a leg up on the VA as I occasionally find that the VA creates a skateboard ramp at times that just bypasses itself completely - if I'm not careful and watching it. Takes a while, but viewed from certain angles, you might not notice. I still prefer the VA on the stack though, even though I have the DD stackable too.

 

[leo-lawson]

It’s nice having more online options now, but it’s a shame that local stores like Lee Valley don’t stock as much anymore. Talking to someone who really knows the tools used to make a big difference now it feels a bit less personal.

 

[Duckler]

I would think Festool would require retailers to ensure their staff knows how their tools operate. Are there Festool reps that visit the stores? If so, they should be offering classes to the staff.

Well, Festool does have a crew/team that travels to various retailers and does demonstrations. But the demo peeps are Festool trained, so that leaves the training question unresolved.
With respect to your title "What's the point of retail stores?" - you said the quiet part out loud....YIKES!
The answer might be related to a need to get out of the house ...

 

[Jim_in_PA]

It’s nice having more online options now, but it’s a shame that local stores like Lee Valley don’t stock as much anymore. Talking to someone who really knows the tools used to make a big difference now it feels a bit less personal.

There are very few "retail" woodworking stores around any more and in some geographies, none of them. And retail being retail, they tend to hire whomever they can get; there are not a lot of experienced woodworkers looking for a side hustle selling stuff like were was a couple of decades ago so satisfying that itch of a conversation with someone that knows the tools well, isn't likely in brick and mortar stores. I also suspect that the majority of folks who make their living using these premium tools are not going to take the time to go to a retail store when they can simply order from a variety of sources and keep working since that brings in the bacon. I don't make my living from the sport of woodworking, but since Uncle Bob retired, every single Festool purchase I've made has been online for new and even used. It's more convenient.

 

[Crazyraceguy]

@Crispy I really think the few retail stores, that still exist, are just legacy holdovers. They are just left overs, from another time, that haven't died off yet.
Sadly, the good one in my city, has just succumbed to this. We do still have a Woodcraft, but it is not what it used to be anymore either. It has never had the Festool presence of the other one. The good one had great guys, all of them were familiar with the tools they stocked. Most of them were hobby users themselves. They had two specific guys in the dedicated Festool area. It was well equipped, and demos/tests were available at all times.
The current form of "shopping and shipping" has accelerated this, in recent years. Back in the day, retail meant instant, if you need it now, that was the place. Many items are nearly that fast, with the current on-line dealers. This has finally put enough hurt on the store front places, that they can't afford to stock as much as they used to, exacerbating the spiral downward. All it takes is a few times of your local place letting you down and you go to the on-line ones first.
The unfortunate part of this, beyond the jobs evaporating, is for the things you really want to see in person.
I don't like the idea of buying timber sight unseen. Woodcraft is far more expensive than the one we lost, in that respect. The local hardwood dealer is even higher. So now I'm faced with a 50 mile drive, to a place where I can pick my own, having it shipped from a better one, or using a local sawyer.

 

[peter halle]

My observation of myself is that in the middle of a project, or just before starting a project there will be need for something that will require putting an eyeball on it and a brick and mortar store helps with that. Also helps with spur of the moment spontaneous purchases. And finally, a purchase picked up and placed in the back of the van is not as easily noticed as a delivery to the front doorstep.

Now if we are talking about Festool, I have both a Woodcraft and a Rockler in my city. Would much rather deal with Woodcraft. Most of their employees are knowledgeable, with one person considered the expert. Availability of tools seems to be ok and the selection of consumables (mainly sandpaper) is better than before, but is all Granat and limited in grit selection. Part of the problem I would image to be the cost to have the merchandise on the shelves and also what I assume to be a requirement to use the "official" displays supplied by Festool that then have the space for inventory based on whether or not the store is considered an A,B,or C volume account.

Peter

 

[Crazyraceguy]

My observation of myself is that in the middle of a project, or just before starting a project there will be need for something that will require putting an eyeball on it and a brick and mortar store helps with that. Also helps with spur of the moment spontaneous purchases. And finally, a purchase picked up and placed in the back of the van is not as easily noticed as a delivery to the front doorstep.

Now if we are talking about Festool, I have both a Woodcraft and a Rockler in my city. Would much rather deal with Woodcraft. Most of their employees are knowledgeable, with one person considered the expert. Availability of tools seems to be ok and the selection of consumables (mainly sandpaper) is better than before, but is all Granat and limited in grit selection. Part of the problem I would image to be the cost to have the merchandise on the shelves and also what I assume to be a requirement to use the "official" displays supplied by Festool that then have the space for inventory based on whether or not the store is considered an A,B,or C volume account.

Peter

The one that closed, near me, had a Rockler department inside. The Rockler was a stand-alone store 20 some years ago. It moved into the bigger supplier's backroom space, and it worked well, for years.
There is something to be said about impulse purchases, I almost brought that up before, but was trying to shorten my reply a little. I'm sure there is a decent percentage of those extras, that might not happen during an on-line order.
The Woodcraft in my city has to be the lowest tier dealer. I have more Festool equipment than they do, except CTs. They have a few of those.

 

[onocoffee]

I gotta give some props to my local Woodcraft. They've only been around for two years but the ownership is committed to maintaining very good stock levels. So much so that people from Pittsburgh and elsewhere have called looking for a tool (like a 3hp SawStop PCS) and driven down because they had it in-stock. They're really very good about it. Like the new Festool Systainer Granat Sets - Woodcraft Baltimore has multiples of all of them. Other dealers? Some don't have one. They may not be well stocked in smaller items and accessories (like the Centrotec Driver) but they get their shipments weekly, so it's not typically much of a wait. The crew that works there are a mix of enthusiasts and working professionals with a range of people who do everything from carving ducks to refinishing antiques to cabinetry and custom furniture.

Personally speaking, I really try to support the local businesses and encourage others to do similar. But I do realize that sometimes the need is critical and waiting a week or so for an order is a bit long. That being said, I've made five orders on Amazon in 2025 - with the last order at the beginning of August.

 

[ReneS]

Well this conversation made me realize why the Capital District of New York State has no woodworking stores.

I thought it was strange and was frustrated by it.

But of course... retail is a tough business, and it actually makes sense that we dont have any, sad though it is.

 

[Ebuwan]

My impression is that the Oneida and Clearvue (R.I.P.) Systainer cyclones have significantly better performance than the CT-VA because they're real cyclonic separators rather than a Thien baffle design, but I don't have either one and have never been able to directly test them. I've stuck with the CT-VA, but I don't get nearly as much use out of it as I think I would if it had better performance. I almost always use a connection straight to the CT when using the CSC SYS 50 or the Kapex, for example, but tools like those that produce a bunch of chips are exactly where you would most want a cyclonic separator to save on bags!

It really feels like an unfortunate case where Festool chose form over function. It looks great, and the ability to stack systainers on top of the unit is nice (I usually keep the installer hand tool kit on top for quick access), but every time I look at it, I just think, "you had ONE job..."

I have The Oneida one (that goes on top of the vac) and i have the CT-VA.

The Oneida leaves more suction power, but it is super clunky and huge compared, and you cant stack anything with it besides classic systainers underneath (i think?). And if you did, the hose that comes with it is too short and can't reach anymore. I leave the Oneida in the shop, and i use the CT-VA when working in a living space, since it allows me to still use the top of the vac like a rolling tool cart.

For me, being able to utilize the top of the vac is more important that some extra suction when in a living space.; FWIW i've never had a dust issue using the CT-VA.

 

[Ebuwan]

@Crispy I really think the few retail stores, that still exist, are just legacy holdovers. They are just left overs, from another time, that haven't died off yet.
Sadly, the good one in my city, has just succumbed to this. We do still have a Woodcraft, but it is not what it used to be anymore either. It has never had the Festool presence of the other one. The good one had great guys, all of them were familiar with the tools they stocked. Most of them were hobby users themselves. They had two specific guys in the dedicated Festool area. It was well equipped, and demos/tests were available at all times.
The current form of "shopping and shipping" has accelerated this, in recent years. Back in the day, retail meant instant, if you need it now, that was the place. Many items are nearly that fast, with the current on-line dealers. This has finally put enough hurt on the store front places, that they can't afford to stock as much as they used to, exacerbating the spiral downward. All it takes is a few times of your local place letting you down and you go to the on-line ones first.
The unfortunate part of this, beyond the jobs evaporating, is for the things you really want to see in person.
I don't like the idea of buying timber sight unseen. Woodcraft is far more expensive than the one we lost, in that respect. The local hardwood dealer is even higher. So now I'm faced with a 50 mile drive, to a place where I can pick my own, having it shipped from a better one, or using a local sawyer.

I feel yer pain. I've resorted to doing big wholesale orders of lumber (like 250bd ft) at a time, getting the discount to make it worth it. I don't get to sort through it first, which sucks, but so far its worked out ok. I've go two young ones right now as well, and I just don't have the luxury of time to head to a lumber yard and dig through stacks (like I used to before kids).

On the plus side though, it is really nice to just go to my pile whenever I want to make something. My wife is amazing though and puts up with my nonsense, so thats a key factor.

 

[Zaph]

I remember reading that thread, which made me keep looking for comparisons, and alternatives, but they just dont look as pretty
I did recently find a you tubes vid that showed ct-va against a couple of other brands, ive been looking at the lo-pro ever since for when i get a second shop vac, or upgrade my work one to cordless.

Did they ever review the Starmix one?

 

[Crispy]

Did they ever review the Starmix one?

Have never heard of the name ( just googled it though)
I am currently contemplating the new-ish milwaukee packout dust collector, its almost a 1/4 of the price, but half the size of the va-20.
I have a $100 gift voucher which means ill only be $100 out of pocket, instead of $$649 with the voucher for the festool, but i have not yet found a comparison video between the 2...

@Crispy I really think the few retail stores, that still exist, are just legacy holdovers. They are just left overs, from another time, that haven't died off yet.
Sadly, the good one in my city, has just succumbed to this. We do still have a Woodcraft, but it is not what it used to be anymore either. It has never had the Festool presence of the other one. The good one had great guys, all of them were familiar with the tools they stocked. Most of them were hobby users themselves. They had two specific guys in the dedicated Festool area. It was well equipped, and demos/tests were available at all times.
The current form of "shopping and shipping" has accelerated this, in recent years. Back in the day, retail meant instant, if you need it now, that was the place. Many items are nearly that fast, with the current on-line dealers. This has finally put enough hurt on the store front places, that they can't afford to stock as much as they used to, exacerbating the spiral downward. All it takes is a few times of your local place letting you down and you go to the on-line ones first.
The unfortunate part of this, beyond the jobs evaporating, is for the things you really want to see in person.
I don't like the idea of buying timber sight unseen. Woodcraft is far more expensive than the one we lost, in that respect. The local hardwood dealer is even higher. So now I'm faced with a 50 mile drive, to a place where I can pick my own, having it shipped from a better one, or using a local sawyer.

Id prefer a local shop to go through any day, it gets me out of the house, i get to drive my ute ( its weekly outing) and impulse purchase unfortunately are always a given.
My wallet, license and wife would prefer i shop from home.

I think its always been this way, but there are always people who should not be in a customer service role, like the last person who served me at my local Total Tools shop, i was more of an inconvenience or interruption to his day, the rest of the staff there are normally pretty helpful and welcoming even if they dont know much about what im looking at.
I have said to my wife in the past i would happily pay for customer service. If i can get something locally but it is slightly more expensive than online, but the service is good, i will purchase locally if possible.
But combine silly pricing, and not even a nod or a grunt on entering your shop i wont be coming back unless i dont have a choice, i.e. i need what you sell now and it cant be put off.

 

[luvmytoolz]

I think its always been this way, but there are always people who should not be in a customer service role, like the last person who served me at my local Total Tools shop, i was more of an inconvenience or interruption to his day

It's funny how the shops vary, there's a few TT's I've been to that almost seem to resent you being there as a customer, and others I've been to have been incredibly friendly and helpful.

With Sydney's Tools I've always had a great experience in their stores, but conversely the online store couldn't be any worse. The reviews bear that out pretty solidly.