Which Domino for chairs?

[snichols]

Hey Guys,

I don't own either Domino but I'd like to purchase one for making a set of dining room chairs and maybe a morris chair. Which ever one I get I'll use other things but as a hobbyist, I don't see myself buying both versions.

I'll try to frame the discussion with a few questions:

1. Any thoughts on whether or not the new domino is better for chair building than the previous version?

2. Would the DF 500 provide enough tenon strength for chairs?

3. The small (4 mm, 5mm, 6 mm) dominoes don't seem to fit into the type of woodworking I'll be doing for the next 5 years or so. If I get the DF 500 I think I'll be working with larger size dominoes (slated for 3/4" to 1 1/2" material), so is it worth the savings in price?

As always, I'm interesting in your thoughts so please let me know what you think.

-Shawn

 

[jacko9]

Shawn,

I have both version of the Domino Joiner and I would use the 500 for chair building with the # 10 tenons.  Some of the furniture I construct I use twin tenons and if your concerned about the tenon length you can either mill your own tenons on your planer or cut integral tenons on your table saw.  I have used both approaches but, for the most part I find that the #8 or #10 tenons are strong enough.

I purchased the XL700 for Door and large table work.

Jack

 

[RussellS]

I don't own either Domino so this is kind of speculation.  For chairs you will probably be using thicker wood.  Legs and arms and back posts of 2"x2" maybe.  So bigger tenons will be appropriate.  With chairs you will also want longer tenons to be sure the chair does not come apart at the joints.  Chairs see lots of stress from rocking and moving.  Longer tenons would be appropriate.  The 500 Domino has a 1 inch tenon maximum.  1 inch in each piece being joined.  700 Domino is 3 inches in length.  For chairs you would likely use 3/4" wood for the seat maybe.  The 8mm Domino can be used in 3/4" wood.  3/4" is 19mm.  8mm tenon will work fine in 19mm thick wood.  There is no law that says you have to make the tenon 1/3 of the thickness.  Personally I think that ends up with a too weak tenon.  So for chair building, the 700 Domino probably makes more sense.  For most furniture work and cabinet building, the 500 Domino makes more sense.

 

[RussellS]

if your concerned about the tenon length you can either mill your own tenons on your planer or cut integral tenons on your table saw.

Exactly how is milling your own tenons or making them integral going to help you with tenon length?  ???  The 500 Domino has a 28mm maximum depth of cut.  The tenon can only be 28mm long with the 500 Domino.  You can mill your own tenons wider if you cut the mortise with the extra width settings on the Domino.  But there is no way you can make the tenon deeper/longer.  28mm is the maximum depth/length with the 500 Domino.  And 70mm maximum is for the 700 Domino.

 

[jacko9]

if your concerned about the tenon length you can either mill your own tenons on your planer or cut integral tenons on your table saw.

Exactly how is milling your own tenons or making them integral going to help you with tenon length?   ???  The 500 Domino has a 28mm maximum depth of cut.  The tenon can only be 28mm long with the 500 Domino.  You can mill your own tenons wider if you cut the mortise with the extra width settings on the Domino.  But there is no way you can make the tenon deeper/longer.  28mm is the maximum depth/length with the 500 Domino.  And 70mm maximum is for the 700 Domino.

I should have been clear on that, I use my hand chisels to deepen the mortise If I need to.

 

[Kev]

The design and materials you intend to use will play a big factor in chair strength. There have been many chairs made with the 500, just google image search using FESTOOL DOMINO CHAIR.

I have both and I would personally look towards the 500 if I was making dining chairs ... but that would be because of the style of chair I would choose.

A Morris chair could also be constructed with a 500.

I really see the 700 as a doors, gates and tables kinda target.

 

[snichols]

This is great guys. I hope the advice keeps on coming. Here is a picture of the type of dining room chair I'm thinking of building.

I hope the picture comes through since it's my first time posting one. Sorry in advance if I screw this up.

[attachthumb=#]

 

[Kev]

This is great guys. I hope the advice keeps on coming. Here is a picture of the type of dining room chair I'm thinking of building.

I hope the picture comes through since it's my first time posting one. Sorry in advance if I screw this up.

No pic  [sad]

 

[jacko9]

This is great guys. I hope the advice keeps on coming. Here is a picture of the type of dining room chair I'm thinking of building.

I hope the picture comes through since it's my first time posting one. Sorry in advance if I screw this up.

No pic  [sad]

Shawn,

Do an edit to your post, go to options and browse for your picture and see if you can add it and then save your edit.

Jack

 

[RONWEN]

if your concerned about the tenon length you can either mill your own tenons on your planer or cut integral tenons on your table saw.

Exactly how is milling your own tenons or making them integral going to help you with tenon length?   ???  The 500 Domino has a 28mm maximum depth of cut.  The tenon can only be 28mm long with the 500 Domino.  You can mill your own tenons wider if you cut the mortise with the extra width settings on the Domino.  But there is no way you can make the tenon deeper/longer.  28mm is the maximum depth/length with the 500 Domino.  And 70mm maximum is for the 700 Domino.

The max tenon length would be 28mm + 28mm or 56mm.

 

[ScotF]

I think that that 500 is fine for chairs and most furniture projects.  There are a couple of members that build lots of chairs and have used the 500 without issue.  If you are interested in build a Sam Maloof style chair, Charles Brock uses the 500 in that construction and it is a part of his video instruction.  I have built bookcases and computer desks with the 500 and they are all rock solid and I have had no issues to date with any of them.  Also, you might be surprised at how much the smaller tenons can come into play -- I originally thought that I would only use 8mm or 10mm tenons and while these two sizes I use the most, I have used quite a few 4mm, 5mm and 6mm tenons too.  Having the different sizes is nice as you may very well incorporate some thinner stock into your work and having the right Domino is handy.  The tenon assortment with the cutters is a good value IMHO.  The XL is perfect for doors or beds or large pieces that really require that extra strength, but for most furniture and cabinets I think that the 500 is more than adequate to get the job done.  If I need deeper mortises, then I will use a router and mill my own tenon stock. 

Scot

 

[jacko9]

Scot mentioned Sam Maloof and his chair building, I attended a two day seminar in Northern Ca with Sam Maloof 20 or so years ago and Sam actually made one of his chairs in a day.  He had custom router bits made up for him and he used a angle grinder to hog out seat bottoms.  Sam would use his router and turn it off and drop it on the bench before it stopped spinning.  Read about his design and you'll find out that he used wood screws to strengthen most of his mortise and tenon joints.

I'm still in the Domino 500 camp for your work.

Jack

 

[Kevin Stricker]

Based on the picture you posted, I think the 500 would be a better option.  For the backrest you are not going to want to use any bigger than a 6mm tenon which is ideal for 3/4" stock.  As the legs appear to be 5/4 then 8 or 10mm tenons would be appropriate.

As for the tenon size discussion, I for one used to always advocate bigger is better.  Doing some destructive testing has shown me that the position and orientation of the Domino is a bigger factor in strength than the size of the Dominos.  I have gone back to the old 1/3 rule and increased the number of tenons to increase strength.  It is important to consider that a 8mm domino in 19mm stock leaves sides of about 5mm, which is less than a 1/4".  So while you have made a strong tenon, you have deceased the strength of the stock significantly.  In a typical edge to end grain joint you have almost halved the number of long grain fibers at the joint.  As a result the joint will usually fail in the stock of the end grain, but will often also blow out the side of the edge grain as well.

Watch Paul Marcel's domino videos on U tube, and especially the Domino Crib sheet.  Hopefully you can also check them both out in person at a local dealer.

 

[Kev]

This is great guys. I hope the advice keeps on coming. Here is a picture of the type of dining room chair I'm thinking of building.

I hope the picture comes through since it's my first time posting one. Sorry in advance if I screw this up.

[attachthumb=#]

That's a chair for the 500 for certain.

 

[Jesse Cloud]

Most modern chairs have the rear legs splayed out for more stability and the front part of a chair seat should be higher than the back of the seat, for comfort.  The back part of the seat will be narrower than the front part, again for comfort.  This means that there are very few ninety degree angles in most chairs.  In my chairs, the only 90 degree joints are those that connect the front legs to the front stretcher.

This has two impacts on your question:

1)At most joints, there just isn't room for a long tenon, so no need for the XL.

2)Angles are not a strong point for Dominoes - its hard to be precise and its awkward building jigs to hold Dominoes in precise positions for this kind of work.  Maybe the XL has improved on this, I only have the old smaller one.

This isn't to say that Dominoes won't work on chairs.  When I do a one-off chair, I will usually just grin and bear it and use the small Domino.  I always use the Domino for back rests and front assemblies, often with multiple tenons.

But when I do a set of chairs, its worth the time to jig up the joinery to ensure that the angles are precise and consistent.  You save a lot of labor in the end.  And routers (usually the 1400 for me) lend themselves to jigs much better than Dominoes do.

So, bottom line, like most of the other posters, I think the small Domino is fine for chairs.  But if I were making a set and doing the same joints dozens of times, I would jig up a router, preferably a Festool router. [big grin]

 

[snichols]

Most modern chairs have the rear legs splayed out for more stability and the front part of a chair seat should be higher than the back of the seat, for comfort.  The back part of the seat will be narrower than the front part, again for comfort.  This means that there are very few ninety degree angles in most chairs.  In my chairs, the only 90 degree joints are those that connect the front legs to the front stretcher.

This has two impacts on your question:

1)At most joints, there just isn't room for a long tenon, so no need for the XL.

2)Angles are not a strong point for Dominoes - its hard to be precise and its awkward building jigs to hold Dominoes in precise positions for this kind of work.   Maybe the XL has improved on this, I only have the old smaller one.

This isn't to say that Dominoes won't work on chairs.  When I do a one-off chair, I will usually just grin and bear it and use the small Domino.  I always use the Domino for back rests and front assemblies, often with multiple tenons.

But when I do a set of chairs, its worth the time to jig up the joinery to ensure that the angles are precise and consistent.  You save a lot of labor in the end.  And routers (usually the 1400 for me) lend themselves to jigs much better than Dominoes do.

So, bottom line, like most of the other posters, I think the small Domino is fine for chairs.   But if I were making a set and doing the same joints dozens of times, I would jig up a router, preferably a Festool router. [big grin]

That's interesting Jesse. I was thinking the domino's ability to make angled mortises lends itself to this application. I specifically wanted this device for the joint you are describing. I have the 1400 and 1010 but I HATE making jigs, which was part of the reason I thought the 500 would be better than the 700 (ease of holding it at an angle).

I do plan on making a set of these so I want to do what makes the most sense. I've never made a chair before or used a domino so maybe I'm being a little naive about its merits. What do you dislike about making the angle cuts? Is it lack of consistency? Is it difficulty of use? 

-Shawn

 

[Jesse Cloud]

Hey Shawn,
The Domino can do angle cuts, but you have to be careful and you have to be ready to toss a piece if its off a little bit. 

What you typically do is to make the angled cut on your workpiece and then fit the fence on the Domino to the angle.  That works well for angles between 0 and 90, but not for larger angles, e.g., the complement of the angle which the other side of the chair will have.  Without a jig, its up to you to hold the Domino still and at the correct angle while you plunge with the other hand.  Easy to miss the angle or make a loose mortise if the Domi jiggles a bit.  I think you are right about the smaller Domino being easier to handle in a situation like that, but I haven't had a chance to try the XL, maybe someone who has the big guy can add his observations.

There are ways you can use the offcut from your workpiece to position the workpiece at 90 degrees, but in my opinion its a little kludgy - if you don't like making jigs, you probably would like this even less. [scared]

The current issue of Fine Woodworking magazine has a nice article my Michael Fortune (one of my heroes) on making a simplified chair with simpler joinery.  Its definitely work a read and would make a fine first chair - its designed to be a dining chair.  Check it out.

By the way, I'm not meaning to put down the Domino.  I really like mine and use it in just about every project I do.

 

[Michael Kellough]

Hey Shawn,
The Domino can do angle cuts, but you have to be careful and you have to be ready to toss a piece if its off a little bit. 

What you typically do is to make the angled cut on your workpiece and then fit the fence on the Domino to the angle.  That works well for angles between 0 and 90, but not for larger angles, e.g., the complement of the angle which the other side of the chair will have.  Without a jig, its up to you to hold the Domino still and at the correct angle while you plunge with the other hand.  Easy to miss the angle or make a loose mortise if the Domi jiggles a bit.  I think you are right about the smaller Domino being easier to handle in a situation like that, but I haven't had a chance to try the XL, maybe someone who has the big guy can add his observations.

There are ways you can use the offcut from your workpiece to position the workpiece at 90 degrees, but in my opinion its a little kludgy - if you don't like making jigs, you probably would like this even less. [scared]

The current issue of Fine Woodworking magazine has a nice article my Michael Fortune (one of my heroes) on making a simplified chair with simpler joinery.  Its definitely work a read and would make a fine first chair - its designed to be a dining chair.  Check it out.

By the way, I'm not meaning to put down the Domino.  I really like mine and use it in just about every project I do.

Same here, in addition to making some wonderfully designed and constructed projects he has made some ingenious jigs.