Which Domino, old small 500, or new large 700

[RussellS]

First post.  But I guess I can be a legitimate member of this forum since I own some lime green/black/cream colored power tools.

Based on recent reviews, it appears the new Domino XL 700 model is coming out.  Based on an email I saw, mid 2012 in North America.  The original Domino 500 uses 4, 5, 6, 8, 10 mm mortise cutters.  The new Domino 700 uses 8, 10, 12, 14 mm mortise cutters.  I don't see much use for the small 4, 5, 6 mm cutters.  Other than as alignment pins for edge gluing boards to make a panel.  I already have a DeWalt plate joiner so this tool serves that purpose.  The 4, 5, 6 mm cutters would be OK for very thin wood.  1/4" to 1/2" thickness.  Although the 8mm cutter could work on 1/2" wood.  Most/all of my woodworking is normal sized projects using 3/4" or thicker wood.  I rarely use thin wood.

What benefit does the old small Domino 500 provide over the new large Domino 700?  Is there any reason to buy the 500 if you can get the 700?  Does the 500 add much functionality?  The 700 can go down to sort of small 8mm mortises, useful for 1/2"-5/8" thick wood.  But the larger 12 and 14mm cutters would be best for larger furniture sized pieces of wood.

 

[peter halle]

Russell,

Welcome to the FOG!  Yes, hopefully the Domino XL will arrive and stay on our shores.  I sense that you might have some numbers mixed up with the sizes of the dominos.  Typically you would be trying to use a domino that is about one-third of the thickness of the workpiece.  If you have 1/2 in stock (12.7 mm) you would be using usually the 4 mm.  For 3/4 in stock a 6 mm.  For full 1 in - also called 5/4 - an 8 mm.  So based on that you could use the Domino 500 for most stuff up to about 1.25 inches, or, thicker, if you doubled up the dominoes.

The XL will duplicate at the high range of the spread and then go big - 2 full inches.

Hope that this helps.

Peter

 

[VictorL]

DF-500 will be more handy than DF-700. DF-700 is designated for Medium to big joints such as big doors, big frames with thick material (1.5" and thicker). For cabinets, drawers, 3/4" frames, plywood, smaller doors, tables etc DF-500 will be more suitable. I've bought DF-500 when they just arrived and never regret this purchase. 10x50 dominoes are really big for many projects. I very rarely need mortises bigger than 10x50, so I'll wait. Another consideration is price. DF-700 is much more expensive.

VictorL

 

[mouppe]

Hi Russell,

Realistically there is not a lot overlap between the two machines. The XL can mortise much deeper then the 500, as well as thicker. The right machine for you depends on what you are building. I build furniture, frames, smaller projects- the 500 is fine. The only time I used a 50mm domino was on my workbench. The price difference between the two will likely only be $200 or so.

Richard.

 

[Stone Message]

Hello Russell,

Peter Halle is quite right when he explains the sizes of domino for differing stock. I build all sorts from small boxes up to barns. For most furniture the DF 500 will be great but for door and window frames, staircases and dining room tables (and barns!) I would go for the DF 700.

Before I got my hands on the DF 700 I needed to make some sturdy joints and so I made some custom dominos in sizes that Festool do not sell. I did a test cut using the 10mm cutter at maximum depth and maximum width (it is 4.25 am here and I am not going out to the workshop to check the exact sizes) and then made up some dominos which I think were about 60mm long and 32mm wide. They worked really well.

Here are two pictures that might help.

The first shows the DF 500 next to the DF 700 with all the regular sizes dominos arranged in front of the appropriate machine.

The second shows a small box that I was making out of walnut where I had used the 4mm dominos to secure the mitred joints. When I cut the box through I accidentally went through the dominos but at least it allows me to illustrate a use for the domlets that come with the DF 500. In the back of that picture you can see my drawing for the bench that I am making which featured in my DF 700 review here on the FOG.

I hope that this helps.

Peter

 

[fritter63]

Slight OT Peter,

for assembly, did you just squeeze all four joints in simultaneously? Using a slow drying glow (like hide glue)?

 

[Stone Message]

Slight OT Peter,

for assembly, did you just squeeze all four joints in simultaneously? Using a slow drying glow (like hide glue)?

I was experimenting to establish the quickest way to bring a box together. The method with the dominos is okay but, as you say, rather elaborate. I used normal PVA glue.

Peter

 

[semenza]

Hi Russell,

Welcome to the FOG !  [smile]

Unless you are doing large heavy joints most of the time I think the 500 will be the more useful of the two. The 500 can be made bigger by doubling up  dominos in one large double cut mortise or by using multiple  mortises in the same joint. The 10 x 50 Domino will do a pretty big joint.  Plus it can do the small things too. The 700 can not be made smaller. Even though you plan to use your biscuit joiner for the smaller things and for edge gluing boards. The 4mm Domino can  be
used in joints where even a face frame  biscuit is  a difficult fit. And the Dominos will hold the joint together while you put clamps on or move the piece.

Seth

 

[Timtool]

I just got me a DF 700 today, they are different machines for different tasks. If you can only get one it will depend on which one will serve you most. In my case i am guessing my 500 will still get the most use because it is so versatile and light, and i will only reach to the 700 when i have to. It's great and initially it cuts into wood like into butter, but at my 40th mortise i could hardly feel my arm anymore. Quite exhausting and painful in the end.

 

[PaulMarcel]

Nice comparison picture, Peter.

I also have done like Peter in the past where I use the larger mortise settings and even stagger them to make wider mortises when necessary. Usually comes up on apron-to-leg joints.  With all the talk of the DF-700, I thought to roll a video on making extra-wide mortises with the DF-500 and coincidentally posted at the same time as Peter replied here (were you over my shoulder? why didn't you say hi?)

It's very easy to do using the cursor lines on the fence cursor.  Making a ton of stock is a matter of resawing some project left-over and possibly a pass in the drum sander.

 

[Stone Message]

Nice comparison picture, Peter.

I also have done like Peter in the past where I use the larger mortise settings and even stagger them to make wider mortises when necessary. Usually comes up on apron-to-leg joints.  With all the talk of the DF-700, I thought to roll a video on making extra-wide mortises with the DF-500 and coincidentally posted at the same time as Peter replied here (were you over my shoulder? why didn't you say hi?)

It's very easy to do using the cursor lines on the fence cursor.  Making a ton of stock is a matter of resawing some project left-over and possibly a pass in the drum sander.

Hi Paul

I have been using the extra wide tenons for some time now and they do extend the value of the Domino 500. I was only making tenons that fit the middle and wide width setting of the DF 500 - take a look at the introduction of my 'reference block' during my review of the DF 700. I really like the idea of going one step further and extending the width of the mortice beyond the wide setting on the machine. Taking that a stage further on can then make them fatter by repeating a cut at a different height setting.

Here is a picture taken yesterday where I have created extra wide mortice slots in the tool area of my new bench. Some of the slots are 55mm long.

If you ever get out of Arizona and come to England let me know and we can meet at my place. My only time in your home state included a visit to Tombstone on a Sunday when everyone was dressed up as cowboys/girls. It was a bit spooky as it was like walking into the middle of the 19th century. Somewhere, perhaps Tuscon, I had some really good re-fried beans.

Take care,

Peter

 

[Jesse Cloud]

Interesting thread!
Personally, I'm not greatly interested in thick tenons.  Two thin tenons make a much stronger joint (more glue area) than a thick tenon.  But sometimes you have a joint in fairly thin wood that takes a lot of stress (yeah, I make chairs) and a long mortise is called for.  So I perk up when I hear the nice depth capacity of the big domino.

If its not too expensive (yeah, right...) I'll get the big domino and put the router end mills and the tablesaw tenoning jig in deep storage.  But for most furniture making applications, I think multiple smaller dominoes with the classic domino are the answer.

Now if you are building entry doors, barns, etc.  the answer is different!

 

[fritter63]

Nice comparison picture, Peter.

I also have done like Peter in the past where I use the larger mortise settings and even stagger them to make wider mortises when necessary. Usually comes up on apron-to-leg joints.  With all the talk of the DF-700, I thought to roll a video on making extra-wide mortises with the DF-500 and coincidentally posted at the same time as Peter replied here (were you over my shoulder? why didn't you say hi?)

It's very easy to do using the cursor lines on the fence cursor.  Making a ton of stock is a matter of resawing some project left-over and possibly a pass in the drum sander.

Your video inadvertently highlights one of the downfalls of using the Domino... it's so quick and easy, there's a tendency to go off without checking measurements. When making M&T "the hard way", one tends to double or triple check everything to avoid cut errors.

The reminder is that even with the Domino, it's best to "measure twice, cut once".

 

[PaulMarcel]

Hi Paul

I have been using the extra wide tenons for some time now and they do extend the value of the Domino 500. I was only making tenons that fit the middle and wide width setting of the DF 500 - take a look at the introduction of my 'reference block' during my review of the DF 700. I really like the idea of going one step further and extending the width of the mortice beyond the wide setting on the machine. Taking that a stage further on can then make them fatter by repeating a cut at a different height setting.

Here is a picture taken yesterday where I have created extra wide mortice slots in the tool area of my new bench. Some of the slots are 55mm long.

If you ever get out of Arizona and come to England let me know and we can meet at my place. My only time in your home state included a visit to Tombstone on a Sunday when everyone was dressed up as cowboys/girls. It was a bit spooky as it was like walking into the middle of the 19th century. Somewhere, perhaps Tuscon, I had some really good re-fried beans.

Take care,

Peter

I liked the block you made; saw it better in part 2.  The idea of making thicker mortises by stacking the height came to mind as well, but I've never done that.  Usually a 10mm thick tenon is perfect and it doesn't require chiseling the end.

So many nicer places than Tombstone to visit here, but it seems to be the best known destination.  Next time you come down, we'll make a native of you and hike rim-to-rim on the Grand Canyon on Independence Day (was 118ºF at the bottom; much naughty language).

I'll make it to England and Europe sometime soon; Phoenix is a hub for British Air.  Problem is I like Japan too much

 

[spikfot]

The D500 is a very versatile machine, Between that and the Leigh FMT, my small and mid size mortises, and mid size tenons are covered.
If I didn't own the FMT, I'd have already purchased a DF700.  With the stock FMT, an OF1400 with a solid carbide 1/2" spiral bit I can easily make M's and T's up to 12.7 x 70 x 120. So, with a DF700 I'd only gain 1.3mm of mortise thickness. The DF700 is a Mortiser only, *could* be considered faster, but the FMT is also very fast, -and unbelievably accurate and repeatable.
The DF500 is also a great tool for glue-ups, making a biscuit/Lamello cutter *almost* redundant.
I'd imagine Festool will sell 10+ 500s for every 700. The 700 crosses the line into quite specialized tooling in my opinion.
Do I want one?
Yes.
Do I need one?
No.
Will I get one.................Damn straight!, after my Felder bills are paid.........

 

[RussellS]

Thank you for the replies.  Some good ideas.  Using two or more slip tenons instead of one thicker tenon would probably be better in most situations.  Something the smaller 500 is better at.  And the 500 has the ability to cut much wider mortises than stock pretty easily.  Then custom tenons could be made without too much difficulty.  I'm getting the impression the smaller 500 has more capability than I gave it credit for.  It just might be the better machine for almost all size furniture except exceptionally large.  Its only downside might be its depth of cut.  28mm I believe.  So you can't have more than about 1 inch of tenon into each piece of wood.  Some projects would call for longer tenons.

 

[fshanno]

What if CMT or someone else starts making 4mm 5mm and 6mm bits for the 700? 

 

[Ken Nagrod]

What if CMT or someone else starts making 4mm 5mm and 6mm bits for the 700? 

How easy would it be to use that huge machine on small pieces?  Is your purpose a one size fits all machine?

 

[Stone Message]

What if CMT or someone else starts making 4mm 5mm and 6mm bits for the 700? 

The Festool engineers would have to answer this but...

If the cutter were to be the same length as the current ones for the DF 700 then strength would become an issue as the diameter decreases. If the length were reduced to lessen the risk of fracture then the user would have to make allowance for this when setting the mortice depth (just as we have to do with the 4mm cutter in the DF500 and that has been shortened due to strength issues).

If the fairies could produce a strong and reliable cutter of the standard length then it would be just as easy to use as the standard ones - depth adjustable from 15 to 70mm and height (to the centre of the cutter) adjustable from 10-50mm. I do not know for sure whether the mortice width would match the standard domino size for the 4-8mm dominos. I suspect that this would be okay as I have used a 10mm domino from my DF 500 box in a mortice made by the DF 700 and vice versa.

As far as using the DF 700 on smaller pieces goes - no problem, within reason. I have used the Trimstop that I bought for my DF 500 on the DF 700 and it works really well (see the picture below). Yes, the DF 700 is heavier but if the stock is well supported that should make no difference.

Peter

 

[Ken Nagrod]

Something I've noticed over the years of using my DF500, that would probably be exacerbated if you did use the DF700 in the same manner, is dominoing materials that aren't relatively flat or have noticeable inconsistencies in the level of the surface.  The wide platform of the fence has a natural tendency to be thrown off by these areas and show the height difference when the mating pieces are joined up.  Obviously always try to work with flat stock, but some stock, particularly sheet goods are frequently cupped and you may not be able to or want to work around those areas.