Which grits for a pine floor

[waynew]

Hi,

I'm looking at sanding a small new pine floor, which would be the best grits from start to finish for the Rotex 150 6"

Also plan to sand the paint off the exterior of the house in preparation for repainting.

THanks,
Wayne

 

[John Langevin]

Hi WayNew, If the boards are fairly smooth I usually start with 80 grit, Rubin for unfinished wood, then 100 grit then switch to 150 grit Brilliant and finish up with 220 grit. Pine stains easily so you can stain after the 220 grit; on harder woods I usually stain at 150 grit, if you get the wood too smooth or start to burnish it it doesn't take the stain as well. What type of stain and finish are you planning to use?

 

[waynew]

John,

They are fairly smooth but there is some variance to the height of the boards so some boards need considerably more sanding than others to get the whole floor level to start with. At this stage I'm probably going to put on either pure tung oil or BLO. There is also some small gaps to be filled.

You starting at alot higher grit than I expected. I was thinking Cristal 60, Rubin 80, 100, 150.

What are you thought about that.

Wayne

 

[The Dude]

Mr. waynew, what type of pine did you install.  This will make a considerable difference in the paper, and application that you are going to attempt.

If: Southern Yellow is used, it is significantly more dense than say a white sugar pine.  Personally, if it is a sugar pine, I would stay with the rubin.  Cristal has that open scratch pattern, and you run the risk of too quick of a removal.  You are going to need to come back with rubin anyways, so why risk leaving swirl marks and deep scratch patterns in the floor.  Further, opening up the porosity of a pine is a tough game when you start putting oil to it.  It could end up pretty blotchy.  If you need to knock down the "bumps" stick with a rubin and move down to say a 50 grit.

Once again, personally, I would go to the max on rubin 180; when you feel you are done, get a "trouble light" wet the floor with Mineral Spirits, check for swirl marks, and if they are present, you may want to do some sanding or better yet, scraping to remove them.

My $.02,

Timmy C 

 

[Michael Kellough]

Mr. waynew, what type of pine did you install.  This will make a considerable difference in the paper, and application that you are going to attempt.

If: Southern Yellow is used, it is significantly more dense than say a white sugar pine....Further, opening up the porosity of a pine is a tough game when you start putting oil to it.  It could end up pretty blotchy.

Even in yellow pine the fast growth is way softer than the slow growth and IMO needs the protection of varnish, unless the wood is quartersawn. The fast growth of flatsawn pine will wear quickly under foot traffic if merely oiled. It will also be sanded away more quickly so you might want to get a hard sanding pad to help keep the boards flat if you use an RO sander.

Wayne said; "I'm looking at sanding a small new pine floor"...."there is some variance to the height of the boards so some boards need considerably more sanding than others to get the whole floor level to start with"
As you know, those high boards will take a lot more sanding than the neighbors and you don't want to tilt a small sander and gouge the adjacent boards. This would be great application for a belt sander with sanding frame but the best thing to do may be to rent a multi-disc floor sander (not the drum type). Floor sanding was pretty well covered here a week or two ago.

Whatever method you use, do try to avoid putting extraneous scratches in the slow growth (especially if it is thick, fine grained, and monochrome as is yellow pine) because they will remain visible until absolutely sanded out. Another plug for a belt sander and sanding frame goes here since scratches parallel to the figure will be way less visible than the perpendicular RO scratches. Good luck!

 

[The Dude]

I can certainly agree with Michael about the belt sanding of the floor on the high spots; however, I disagree about the finish if you are after a more rustic look.  The SYP if you have acquired it as indeed SYP is a fairly hard floor.  And is indeed a fairly closed grain wood, despite it's growth rate.  The difference between the heart and sap is going to be negligible.  If you utilize a tung oil, it is a very lengthy process, and lots of knees.  Make sure you use a ton of tung, even so far as oiling periodically in the winter with the house heated of course, and be ready for the floor to take on a pretty good amber patina.

With regards to hardness; If we were to take a Northern Red Oak as the "boiler plate" as NWFA does.  SYP is 30% softer than the Norther Red Oak.  Cherry is only 26% softer than Norther Red, and Walnut is 22% softer than Northern Red Oak.  AGAIN, if it is indeed SYP, and not a white pine, in MHO you would be fine with the  RO 150 but better with a belt sander.  IF you are after that rustic look you should be gold.  If you really want the opportunity to buy a new tool; go buy the 850 and get the adz blade and chop it up a bit.

Go get 'em newdude,

Timmy C

 

[waynew]

It might be worth clearing up the species question first and since I dont know what it is I've posted a few pics in the forum common folder for you to look at, perhaps someone can identify it. My guess is white pine.

BTW, this is for my workshop floor so its not going to stay perfect for very long and that one of the reasons for going oil, I thought that the varnish would damaged too easily but the floor could be coated once a year with the oil.
http://www.festoolownersgroup.com/CoppermineMain/thumbnails.php?album=1

Thanks,
Wayne

 

[Michael Kellough]

I agree that SYP is an impressively strong wood. I once read that it is like a "lamination of ebony and basswood". It's the early growth basswood-like component of SYP that I'd be concerned about in flat sawn floorboards. The ebony-like late growth will protect the soft layer if the boards are quarter sawn. This generally applies to any softwood but the difference between early and late growth is more extreme in the SYP species group.

 

[Michael Kellough]

My guess is white pine.

BTW, this is for my workshop floor so its not going to stay perfect for very long and that one of the reasons for going oil, I thought that the varnish would damaged too easily but the floor could be coated once a year with the oil.

It may well be white pine, I'm not sure, (but it isn't in the SYP group) so it is going to be more susceptible to scratching and gouging in your shop environment. An oil finish that is easy to rub into the scratches is a much better choice than a varnish.

 

[The Dude]

Morning Wayne, I agree with Michael.  That is not a SYP, without putting the "fingernail" test to it, my guess would be a ponderosa pine.  Pretty soft stuff, but a good call for a shop floor.  Those planks are looking pretty wide too.  Are the Tounge and Groove?  If yes super, now for the not so good news.  You will need to either Face Nail or Face screw those wide planks to the floor.  If you don't, you are going to see some pretty substancial cupping and bowing. 

If you don't want to see the screw heads; Shane over there at McFeeley's can hook you up with their break off head screws (item  # SNM-3230).  You will need to fill a small hole, but they work pretty slick.  If you would like a more rustic look, counter sink the screws and leave the head exposed (this would be the artistic part of your excersize developing a pretty design).  Either way dude, hit those wide planks with face nail or screws...if you don't, your floor is going to be a tsunami after 5-6 months. 

Good looking shop floor, and definately go with a natural tung on it.  The other option, that is more expensive but indeed durable is to go with a waterborn finish like Bona Traffic.  This is a two-part finish that is commonly used in restaurant environments.  It is a clear finish and extremely durable.  But as I have said, I think Michael hit it on the head with rubbin' your tung on the floor.

Peace Dude,

Timmy C

 

[waynew]

Those planks are looking pretty wide too.  Are the Tounge and Groove?  If yes super, now for the not so good news.  You will need to either Face Nail or Face screw those wide planks to the floor.  If you don't, you are going to see some pretty substancial cupping and bowing. 

Hi Timmy and Michael,

I'm not sure what happened to the pictures posted to the common folder but they have dissappeared, perhaps the folder is cleaned out each night. Anyway, its not so obvious from those photos but the boards have been face screwed and nailed through the tongue. I have a special bit for the drill to create plugs in the boards which can then be bandsawed off in one shot. You guys seem to have a good knowledge on all this stuff and I want your opinion on how to fill the gaps between the boards, there are a few 1/16" wide gaps. It was suggested by a flooring contracter that I met on a job site that the best way it to make a paste from the fine dust from the boards after sanding using just water. I just want a second opinion on this. BTW thge boards are 7" wide and 1.5" thick.

Good looking shop floor, and definately go with a natural tung on it.  The other option, that is more expensive but indeed durable is to go with a waterborn finish like Bona Traffic.  This is a two-part finish that is commonly used in restaurant environments.  It is a clear finish and extremely durable.  But as I have said, I think Michael hit it on the head with rubbin' your tung on the floor.
Peace Dude,
Timmy C

Just to clarify are you saying to use the rubin to rub inthe tung oil?

THansks for your help,
Wayne

 

[Michael Kellough]

...I want your opinion on how to fill the gaps between the boards, there are a few 1/16" wide gaps. It was suggested by a flooring contracter that I met on a job site that the best way it to make a paste from the fine dust from the boards after sanding using just water. I just want a second opinion on this. BTW thge boards are 7" wide and 1.5" thick.

Wait until the humidity rises a bit more and there won't be any gaps, except at the ends.    As I was reading your post I was thinking don't try to fill the gaps and just let the work generated sawdust accumulate in them but the floor guy's suggestion to pack the gaps with wet dust makes sense to me since anything that drys hard will get crushed as the boards expand unless it is harder than the wood in which case the wood will be crushed which is even worse.

I'd go with the floor guy's suggestion but be prepared to sand away the stuff that comes out of the joints during the first application of the oil. To reduce that, you could spray the oil on for at least the first coat. You can expect the oiled dust gap filler to take a lot longer to dry too.

 

[Toolpig]

Regarding removing the paint on your house:

Haven't tried it yet, but a painter friend of mine using the ROTEX125 with 24-grit Saphir paper (after a little scraping with a carbide scraper to get the big, loose stuff), then he goes right to 60-grit to make it smooth and feather the edges of any paint with good adhesion.  He did a little on my house and it looks great!  Be sure to use a vac with a HEPA filter in case of lead dust.

JW

Hi,

I'm looking at sanding a small new pine floor, which would be the best grits from start to finish for the Rotex 150 6"

Also plan to sand the paint off the exterior of the house in preparation for repainting.

THanks,
Wayne

 

[waynew]

Thanks toolpig and Michael,

Great suggestions. I was speaking with Tim over the phone today and he also gave me a few more ideas in particular a wood filler you can trowel on from Bona. Just went out and took a quick look at the floor and alot of the gaps are closing up, if the boards continue expanding I wont be able to get anything in there

And yes I have the CT33 with the Hepa filter.

Wayne

 

[Dave Ronyak]

If you plan to color stain that pine floor, particularly if using a pigmented stain, the final grit size is going to make a significant difference in how much stain is picked up by the floor.  Because pine typically has alternating regions of hard and soft wood defined by its growth rings, absorption of stain is usually rather uneven.  This unevenness can be greatly reduced by applying a wash coat of 1 to 2 lb cut shellac before staining.

You should have no problem with evenness of finish if you choose natural tung oil or equivalent, if you're satisfied with the relatively low abrasion resistance and moisture permeability of it.

Dave R.

 

[Warrior]

I am not sure if this application will work but I have had fantastic results filling gaps in joints and nail holes with the fine dust taken from the ct22 after sanding the piece. Mix the fine sanding dust with polyurethane glue with a putty knife to desired consistency you now have 20-30 min of working time to use up your perfectly color matched putty.

Eiji