white scotch brite + dye stain = color shift?

mrFinpgh

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I've been working on some curly maple for the past few weeks and experimenting with different dye techniques to try and get something warm and a bit glowing. 

After some different trials and errors, I settled on a simple process of sanding to 220, raising the grain, sanding again at 220,  applying a 4x diluted coat of transfast dye, sanding back at 220, and then applying full strength.

This has thus far given me predictable consistent results.  However, as i was playing around on small samples, I used shop towels to apply the stain.

I read a jeff jewitt article where he recommended using a scotch brite pad to help avoid any nibs from grain raising during the process.  Sounds great.  I didn't have any maroon, but I did have some white.

I cut a piece of the white pad off and poured out a little full strength dye.  Began applying and I noticed immediately the color was significantly darker than anything I had seen during my samples.  Finished one piece and then switched to the shop towel - the color was back to 'normal', a kind of brown/orange/gold depending on where you are in the wood.  So now I have two pairs of parts, one part of which has a much darker color than the rest.

So, I think there are two possibilities:

1. Some kind of chemical reaction to the scotchbrite pad causing darker coloring.  This seems unlikely.
2. The shop towel perhaps might be 'absorbing' some darker pigments and causing the color shift.  Perhaps the scotchbrite pad was showing a more 'true' pigment.  I question this, because I use scraps of ash veneer to stir the dye and it never got quite that dark.

I rubbed the darker one vigorously with wet towels to try to lighten it, but it only moved it a little bit in terms of shade.

I think I have some more sanding in my near future (these are smallish parts, so it's all hand sanding  :'(  ). 

 
Is it possible the scotch bite is affecting the grain since it is more abrasive than a shop towel?  I think it's rated at about 1000 grit?

Just a thought -
 
The pad is opening the pores, there is also the process of sanding in a dye or stain.

Tom
 
Thanks.. now I've learned something new.  I thought the pad was just to help avoid any little grain raises.  Interesting that it would have such a significant effect. 

I've never really worked with dyes before.. they open up some interesting possibilities.
 
mrFinpgh said:
Thanks.. now I've learned something new.  I thought the pad was just to help avoid any little grain raises.  Interesting that it would have such a significant effect. 

I've never really worked with dyes before.. they open up some interesting possibilities.

Dyes will drive you crazy.

I lost a color over the weekend, didn't mix enough first time, took me over 4 hours to get it back. Difference was less than a 1% (by weight, I use a gram scale) dilution change.

Tom
 
An interesting experiment would be to sand to a 280/320 level and then use the white Scotch-Brite™ pad. See if that combination gets you closer to the 220 grit + shop towel color.
 
mrFinpgh said:
I've been working on some curly maple for the past few weeks and experimenting with different dye techniques to try and get something warm and a bit glowing. 

After some different trials and errors, I settled on a simple process of sanding to 220, raising the grain, sanding again at 220,  applying a 4x diluted coat of transfast dye, sanding back at 220, and then applying full strength.

This has thus far given me predictable consistent results.  However, as i was playing around on small samples, I used shop towels to apply the stain.

I read a jeff jewitt article where he recommended using a scotch brite pad to help avoid any nibs from grain raising during the process.  Sounds great.  I didn't have any maroon, but I did have some white.

I cut a piece of the white pad off and poured out a little full strength dye.  Began applying and I noticed immediately the color was significantly darker than anything I had seen during my samples.  Finished one piece and then switched to the shop towel - the color was back to 'normal', a kind of brown/orange/gold depending on where you are in the wood.  So now I have two pairs of parts, one part of which has a much darker color than the rest.

So, I think there are two possibilities:

1. Some kind of chemical reaction to the scotchbrite pad causing darker coloring.  This seems unlikely.
2. The shop towel perhaps might be 'absorbing' some darker pigments and causing the color shift.  Perhaps the scotchbrite pad was showing a more 'true' pigment.  I question this, because I use scraps of ash veneer to stir the dye and it never got quite that dark.

I rubbed the darker one vigorously with wet towels to try to lighten it, but it only moved it a little bit in terms of shade.

I think I have some more sanding in my near future (these are smallish parts, so it's all hand sanding  :'(  ).

I feel your pain!

Few weeks ago I used pink TransFast dye. Messed with samples like you to get the color just right. I use WB top coats so was worried what it would do to the WB dye so searched here and elsewhere to see how to seal the TransFast. I found a few recommend de-waxed shellac but some said it could cause the WB top coat to craze. The spec sheet says use any top coat as a sealer. So I was so confused I called Jeff Dewitt and he said he has used TransFast many times with WB top coat and suggested to just use a light coat as a seal coat. He said light coat so as to not to get a "blotchy" look. Well, didn't get any blotching but my components turned bright orange!

So lessen learned - when trying something new/different go through the ENTIRE process on samples. I just sampled the dye never thinking it would react with the top coat.

I was able to recover pretty well by adding Mixol tint to the clear coat and spray another 4 coats. But, I need some hints on how to get the color to blend nicely/evenly. I have a Fuji Q4 and use the "blue" 1.0 air cap for the Target EM6000 & EM9300 (needle backed out between 1-1/4 to 1-1/2 turns/air valve about 10 o'clock). I try to overlap at 50% but the finish seemed like it was laying down thinner in line with the center of the nozzle - just the opposite that I would have expected.

Mike
 
SW has a waterborne sealer for under their KA+. Weird stuff, ,but it works.

Use the 1.0 nozzle/needle, use the 0.8 air cap. It should solve the dry center issue.

Tom
 
Mike Goetzke said:
I feel your pain!

Few weeks ago I used pink TransFast dye. Messed with samples like you to get the color just right. I use WB top coats so was worried what it would do to the WB dye so searched here and elsewhere to see how to seal the TransFast. I found a few recommend de-waxed shellac but some said it could cause the WB top coat to craze. The spec sheet says use any top coat as a sealer. So I was so confused I called Jeff Dewitt and he said he has used TransFast many times with WB top coat and suggested to just use a light coat as a seal coat. He said light coat so as to not to get a "blotchy" look. Well, didn't get any blotching but my components turned bright orange!

I've used thinned sealcoat under em6000.. usually one coat and then a scuff at 320.  It has never crazed and helps warm up the wood a little bit.

Pink to Orange -- that kind of makes sense.  Did you notice if it looked any different from any angles?  Was it immediate or did it happen as the finish dried?  I know that for me, em6000 can read a bit blue if when it first goes down.  That's cool that you're layering the color into the finish..  reminds me of some of the guitar finishes, where they spray tinted finish over a bright yellow dye.  :-)
 
as an update, I was able to get this issue fixed by:

1. Sanding the darker areas with 320 until they lightened a bit beyond the final target
2. Adding some 4x diluted dye
3. While above was still wet, adding some full strength dye.

The reason for #2 was to help control the intensity of the dye by pre-saturating it with something a little weaker.  I think I saw James Condino do this on a sunburst in a fine woodworking video.

Now I'm into the french polishing phase.  Will have to post pictures when I get the chance.
 
Cheese said:
An interesting experiment would be to sand to a 280/320 level and then use the white Scotch-Brite™ pad. See if that combination gets you closer to the 220 grit + shop towel color.

more sanding?  [scared]

That would be an interesting experiment.  I've got a bunch of offcuts from shaping these parts, so maybe I'll give that a shot to see how it affects the colors.  One thing I'm curious about is whether the absorption is more intense in the curl or the long grain parts.  Since I'm usually sanding back the long grain on the first couple coats, I would probably want to avoid anything that makes it absorb more in those spots only.
 
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