Who is and Who isn't

[Brice Burrell]

This is why I asked if you were done with this discussion. I thought some of the members would not be satisfied with the concession already made by the reviewers. My concern is these people may never be satisfied until they push out all of the sponsored reviews (and reviewers). BTW, that's what is going to happen if it is made difficult or not possible to post our work and or ideas here, we will be forced to find a more supportive place to share our efforts. Think about if that is what you want.

I agree with Greg's comment "this statement (Wayne's signature line recommendation) will trigger the assumption that the review is biased." Furthermore, the sig line follows the member throughout the entire site, potentially triggering bias with ever post the member makes. That simply isn't fair. Maybe you think it is, maybe you feel every post is already biased. I don't want to assume I know what anyone is thinking, but I'm trying to figure out the motivation behind this request. At this point I will not support this signature line idea.

 

[Matthew Schenker]

... there are of course the professional craftsmen here, as well as hobbyists (and clueless newbies like myself), and the board isn't a straight up "sponsored by Festool" message board, is it?

That's an understatement.  Not even close -- click here.
Matthew

 

[plywood]

I think the people who put reviews on the fog do an excellent job.  I am curious to know why the festool dealers and employees are separated out with a different color.  Arguing the disclosure is an insult to the person doing a review could also be applied to the dealers.  I am happy with the unofficial rule of self- disclosure.

 

[Matthew Schenker]

I think the people who put reviews on the fog do an excellent job.  I am curious to know why the festool dealers and employees are separated out with a different color.  Arguing the disclosure is an insult to the person doing a review could also be applied to the dealers.  I am happy with the unofficial rule of self- disclosure.

We're talking about two separate things here.  Dealers are not separated out for disclosure.  They are separated out so people know who they are.  The same goes for the Festool employees who belong to the forum, and for me as the administrator.  By contrast, reviewing tools is only one part of what most people here do, so I would not want to make rules that define them as a "sponsored" reviewer everywhere they go.  Of course, if a reviewer wants to define himself that way, it can be a personal choice.
Matthew

 

[Steveo48]

.....In my case, it had been over a year before I bought an accessory for my Domino before I found that it was misaligned when making that particular kind of cut. Now, I'm short on options about what to do (request a return or send it in for repair... either way I'm loosing working time and risking getting back the same or a different problem).

Two Words.  E Bay     You might even make a little money!

Matthew, does Festool make asbestos boots?  Looks like you could use some. 

For me the reviews are very helpful, but I'm still making the decision on what I see at my local Festool dealer.  My local Woodcraft and Rockler dealer lets you take the tools/accessorics out for a spin first before you buy.

Steve

 

[Steveo48]

Please, let's stick to our opinions about reviews, and offer something that improves our forum.  But let's not openly or indirectly question the integrity of reviewers.  That will never lead to good policies.

Stay in touch,
Matthew

Matthew, I think we need a section for these type of arguments that is kind of like the WWF, lots of fury and comotion but everyone knows it's really BS anyway and doesn't take it seriously. 

Steve

 

[Dave Ronyak]

Hello All,

I was going to stay far away from this thread until now.

Why? Well, Ron mentioned my name above and suggested that

I had reviewed a Kapex. I have not, do not own one yet, did not get one for free

and only had the opportunity to use it twice. Briefly in Festool's training center

and at John Lucas house a few weeks ago. That being said Festool has provided me

with the 2200 router to review at my request

For those who know me, no, for those who don't, I have been around

these intertoob forums with info and questions for quite sometime.

But enough about me. This is about you.

Or rather your decision making.

Didn't Momma teach you to suspect everything? ...

Per

I met Per at the April Festool/FOG gathering in Henderson, NV.  His review of the 2200 router should be a very interesting review and well worth reading.  When the 2200 router was introduced to us at Henderson, I distinctly remember him expressing skepticism and concerns about safety with such a large, powerful router and using large diameter bits in such a hand held machine.  He proved that later in the day, too, by initially staying clear of the demonstration area in the shop later that day.  He said that he used a shaper instead when he needed to machine large profiles similar to those possible with the 2200 router.  So I will state that in my opinion, Per comes to his review of the 2200 router with a bias, a negative bias.  As am amateur/hobbyist home fixer upper and sometimes furniture maker, I personally have no use for such a large router, because I have a 1400 and a PC 7518 in a table, and a molding head for my traditional style table saw.  But I will read Per's review with much interest, because 1) he makes his living using woodworking tools (those who don't know him should check out his website), 2) he has demonstrated keen insight in many other comments hear on FOG, 3) he has a unique, informative, frank, and entertaining writing style that I envy, and 4) he has earlier stated and demonstrated to those present in Henderson his skepticism about this new high-powered router.

Dave R.

 

[petiegolfer]

He he...a spirited debate!!

One has to ask about the end user of a review as much as the reviewer.

I dont work in the trade but have always made things through out my life. It is one of the things that I enjoy. I have fitted kitchen's, bathrooms, relandscaped gardens (8tons of concrete 21m of metre high retaining wall), built multi level decks, assemble golf clubs etc etc

As a result of doing things myself..DIY..three letters that I personally dont like as they catorgarise me in a certain light..I have invested alot of money in tools.

Here is how I use reviews...I use them to teach me how a tool might help me. All of the reviewers here write really indepth reviews / how to's...that is what I want i want to see how the tools work as I cant see first hand on the building site. I then sift through various web sites getting "personal" opinions on how the tools have held up / preformed.

So as you can see Im all for the "professional reviewers" and their work...I couldnt care less if they are sponsered to the tune of a tool or not. All I want from them is a show case for what can be acheived with the tool. I can work out the rest when it comes to value for money and I will certainly hear from others about the "problems"!

Brice, Per,Eiji, Gary, WSD give me insight and inspiration. I still make my own decisions based on further research, always have always will do.

I think we have to look at what some of the guys do here and what they produce when they get their hands on these tools. I personally see them more as tutorials than reviews...that means to me at least, that they are hugly more valuable than the value of the tool that they were given.

Be honest where your perspective is when you look at these guys and what they produce and judge..im jealous that they got a free Festool,  I am indebted with what they then did with it!

I will only get upset when they skimp on their "tutorial" and produce something inferior.

Keep up the good work guys keep showing me what I could achevie if i had the right tool for the job!

Piers

 

[greg mann]

He he...a spirited debate!!

One has to ask about the end user of a review as much as the reviewer.

I dont work in the trade but have always made things through out my life. It is one of the things that I enjoy. I have fitted kitchen's, bathrooms, relandscaped gardens (8tons of concrete 21m of metre high retaining wall), built multi level decks, assemble golf clubs etc etc

As a result of doing things myself..DIY..three letters that I personally dont like as they catorgarise me in a certain light..I have invested alot of money in tools.

Here is how I use reviews...I use them to teach me how a tool might help me. All of the reviewers here write really indepth reviews / how to's...that is what I want i want to see how the tools work as I cant see first hand on the building site. I then sift through various web sites getting "personal" opinions on how the tools have held up / preformed.

So as you can see Im all for the "professional reviewers" and their work...I couldnt care less if they are sponsered to the tune of a tool or not. All I want from them is a show case for what can be acheived with the tool. I can work out the rest when it comes to value for money and I will certainly hear from others about the "problems"!

Brice, Per,Eiji, Gary, WSD give me insight and inspiration. I still make my own decisions based on further research, always have always will do.

I think we have to look at what some of the guys do here and what they produce when they get their hands on these tools. I personally see them more as tutorials than reviews...that means to me at least, that they are hugly more valuable than the value of the tool that they were given.

Be honest where your perspective is when you look at these guys and what they produce and judge..im jealous that they got a free Festool,  I am indebted with what they then did with it!

I will only get upset when they skimp on their "tutorial" and produce something inferior.

Keep up the good work guys keep showing me what I could achevie if i had the right tool for the job!

Piers

Well, Piers, your post should is so eloquent it should signal the end of this debate. If anyone thinks they can add or subtract from your position statement they will be engaging in self dillusion.

 

[Dave Rudy]

Two Words.  E Bay 

Is that two words?  ;D

For me the reviews are very helpful, but I'm still making the decision on what I see at my local Festool dealer.  My local Woodcraft and Rockler dealer lets you take the tools/accessorics out for a spin first before you buy.

So do your online dealers, Steve -- 30 day money back guarantee.

 

[Tinker]

For some unknown reason, I had somehow missed this conversation until now.  (Yesterday, as a matter of fact, or full disclosure, or whatever)  I have tried to stay neutral in thought thru the entire list of replies, all 4 pages.  IMHO, it all boils down to a matter of trust.  Many of us who have been reading, and also, many who have made replies, have found ourselves all thru our lives in situations where we must decide on whether we trust, or do not trust those who we meet, talk with deal with, or drive down the road with.  soon, we will be voting for the persons we feel the most trust in, even tho we know full well they are, and always will be biased.  I just hope I will be the best judge of character I can be.

In the matter of trust, i have just put my pal and faithful friend to rest.  My dog, Maggie, was 16-1/2 years old and came to us as an abused and very freightened dog.  She learned very quickly that even tho we were people who maybe had the same number of arms and legs as her former abusers, she could trust us completely.  Somehow, she always knew when strangers came, who she could trust and who she could not.  I believe it was instinctive for her.  If a stranger came into our yard, she always barked.  For those she knew she could trust (instinctively), she just barked and would try to take their hand and lead them into the house.  Some, she did not trust so much and she would bark from behind my legs until she knew I. or my wife, trusted them.  In all of her life, there were two people who she did not trust at all. When either of them came into the yard, she would sort of wrap her body against my legs and actually push me away.  One of those two came to the house several times and she never once showed that she trusted him.  Within months, i discovered I should have paid attention.

I think we have some who are showing some distrust and some who are very trusting, indeed.  In my own case, I am a small contractor (both scope and size  8) )  I am meeting people almost every day.  Some, i trust immediately, while others I must be around for awhile before i make my decision.  I don't care what they are telling me, or what they are selling, I somehow get a feeling for which way I will feel.  I've been in business one way or another since i was in jr high selling eggs (my own chickens) to my neighbors.  I have found a whole lot of very trustworthy people and darned few I could not trust.  For the most part, the ones I did not trust, there was a mutual feeling.

I don't care whether or not Brice, John, Jerry, Per or any of the other tool testers here give full disclosure.  So far, i feel a great deal of trust in what they say, how they say it, what they are doing and how they are doing it. And they have been most helpful.  I don't think anybody here has been slighted in any way.

This has been, and I trust will be for a long time, a great forum.
Tinker

 

[Grinding One]

I for one just like to see how these things operate in the real world as they do not have very good instructions with them....reviews,ok go ahead tell me how YOU make them work for you.Take them out for a spin don`t you think you could get hurt>>>.I have met some dealers I wouldn`t want to explaine how they work as they couldn`t even turn them on properly ....as I asked questions  : nah I`ll see you later.Came here and learned more in a few minutes then I did at the store.Keep up the good work guys.

 

[gkeas]

I did not realize that there were FOG members that post editorials about tools and that those same individuals were "underwritten" by Festool in any size shape or manner.  Coming from the pharmaceutical industry in a previous life, this practice is looked upon with a great amount of suspicion. 
After reading from Brice that "I've had Festool give me products to help promote here and on my site , that is no secret" I was really taken back.  Being a relatively new member I had not see that information disclosed.  I am not saying that Brice or any other FOG member's review or comment was skewed because of their "affiliation" with Festool, I for one would like those relationships disclosed about the affiliation, dealers are required to disclose their association, I think that those of the FOG members that receive anything for free from Festool should be so identified.  At that point, it is my decision as to the level of credibility given to the author.

Dan Judish

I have not received anything free from Festool other than a size XXL cotton screen print T-Shirt.  My reviews (of all but the aformentioned T-Shirt) are completely unbiased and unsolicited.  (oh, and mostly useless) ;D