Whole house renovation/cabinet building without a table saw?

[ddr90036]

Hi All,

I'm renovating a home with 3 bedrooms, 3 baths and making A LOT of cabinets, vanities, built-ins, etc.  My super talented woodworking friend thinks that I'm crazy to be doing all of it without a table saw, but he's only a little familiar with Festool and router joinery.  He's used them, but he thinks that it will be a very slow process to do everything I want to do.  That said, I've made some cabinets with Festool already and things have gone okay, but not great.  This may due to my space limitations which will be eliminated when I move from my current 12' x 14' space to a 900 square foot basement with 9' ceilings... or it could be that things really are slow.  I'm just looking for whomever to weigh in on  if they think I really need to invest in a Sawstop or get by with my current TS 55, OF 1400, guide rails and lots of other Festool equipment.  I'll be doing all the kitchen cabinets, 3 bathroom vanities, multiple built-ins and after all of that is done fabricating some of the countertops with GFRC techniques.  All input is very appreciated.  Thanks

 

[scgwhite]

It is perfectly possible to do every table saw task with a track saw - except using a dado stack. Your production will be slower for some tasks - if you have 20 panels of the same time to rip on a table saw you just set the fence and go. With a track saw, each will need to be measured (with tape or a scrap of wood cut to length - better for consistency) before being cut. Despite this, I think a track saw is much safer - I sold my table saw after a small cut to my finger which could have been much worse. Plus, a track saw takes up no space...

 

[kevinculle]

For the "mass production" of sheet goods panels which your cabinet builds will involve I think the table saw is the fastest and most accurate/reproducible approach, particularly if you have a good fence system.  If your cabinet box joinery includes dadoes in the side panels to receive the top, back and bottoms, then doing these with a dado stack on the table saw rather than a router will also substantially increase productivity as the dado stack can remove material at a much faster rate than a router bit.  Over the past 5 years I have been redoing all of the cabinets in our house (27 done, 3 to go) and I have given my table saw quite a workout.

 

[Dick Mahany]

I just moved into a new home and built over 20 cabinets and about 36 frame and panel doors.......all with out a table saw (since I sold mine before I moved).  A track saw beautifully broke down sheet goods and ripped 2.5" wide hardwood stock for the door frames.  I used the Euro 32mm method for frameless cabinets and won't look back.  I also built a 12' long x 8' entertainment cabinet wall that included cabinets, drawers and shelves with the same process.

A Domino and a dedicated router table were also used and once I established an optimum work flow, made very quick work.  Never having attempted such an effort without a table saw, I was a little intimidated at first due to the cost of the expensive materials that I was about to mill up.  I quickly realized how accurate and fast cabinets can be made this way and wouldn't hesitate to do it again.

 

[tms0425]

Erock's cabinet video series does a great job to chronicle a kitchen cabinet build with no table saw. Once the plan and flow is together he makes it look very straightforward with beautiful results.

That said, I'm building a bunch of shop cabinets and sysports. Having a Minimax CU300 8.5' slider to do the cabinet and door/drawer parts makes quick work of repetitive steps if you're building a lot of the same things. I just did ~30 domi-drawers and it was very nice to have. The downside is if you screw up one dimension (like I did), you have 30 of the wrong thing to fix [crying]
The guy I bought the combo machine from did exactly what you're doing, finished all of his house cabinets and trim, which had a fair amount of both sheet goods and hardwood, and then sold the machine to me.

 

[cpw]

I think the track saw is great for the sheet goods, but a table saw is much better for doing face frames or rails and stiles from the hardwood.  It find it just much easier to bang out a lot of equal rips or cross cuts on the table saw.

If I want to rip 2.25" pieces down to 2", clamping the rail, etc. is just a real pain compared to having the fence set at 2".  I've got a Sawstop PCS, but you could get a small job site saw (not saw stop) for not too much money/space outlay; and I think it would accelerate your work with the smaller parts and use the track saw for the sheet goods.

 

[curiousdork]

I just moved into a new home and built over 20 cabinets and about 36 frame and panel doors.......all with out a table saw (since I sold mine before I moved).  A track saw beautifully broke down sheet goods and ripped 2.5" wide hardwood stock for the door frames.  I used the Euro 32mm method for frameless cabinets and won't look back.  I also built a 12' long x 8' entertainment cabinet wall that included cabinets, drawers and shelves with the same process.

A Domino and a dedicated router table were also used and once I established an optimum work flow, made very quick work.  Never having attempted such an effort without a table saw, I was a little intimidated at first due to the cost of the expensive materials that I was about to mill up.  I quickly realized how accurate and fast cabinets can be made this way and wouldn't hesitate to do it again.

This is good to hear.  I have a TS 75 and a Festool Domino and looking to pick up a few more tools soon.  I already built a crappy track saw bench so I can break down sheet goods.  Either way, it's awesome to read of people who've built whole kitchen cabinets w/o a table saw.  My goal before fall is to gut my kitchen and redo all the cabinets.

 

[ddr90036]

Thanks to everyone for their feedback, particulary Dick.  As a newb, I need the encouragement to do it differently.  The thought of buying one more (expensive, bulky and possibly dangerous) tool really made me think that I was getting in over my head!  I appreciate all of the input! 

Oh and I'm not doing face frame - I'm also the household cook and want to maximize cabinet space as much as possible

 

[semenza]

The best is to have both.  But track saw can do the whole job. It will be slower for some things and better for others. Same holds true for having only a table saw.

Seth

 

[jaguar36]

I'm in the midst of building kitchen cabinets myself, and I love having the table saw in addition to the track saw.  As others have said its possible to due without, but it makes life alot easier, and less frustrating.  Its also great to be able to leave it setup for one thing, with the MFT setup for another without having to keep redoing the setup all the time. 

I've also found it far easier to get a dado stack dialed in just right vs trying to get a router bit that matches perfectly.

 

[ddr90036]

@Seth.  Okay.  I don't mind the idea of having both.  Can you tell me what might be better for the Track Saw and what might be better for the table saw?  Also, any suggestions on the minimum sort of table saw that I can get by with?  I had a small portable Skilsaw and it was slow and had no power so I know I need slightly bigger/more powerful but beyond that I don't know.  Please - any suggestions are welcome!

 

[AlexThePalex]

I would never want to be without a table saw. It just work so much faster in every way. It doesn't have to be a SawStop, a small portable DeWalt or Bosch saw would do great. I'm a bit spoiled with my portable Festool CS70 table saw, it can be folded up to a small package, and expanded with extensions to become much bigger. 

I also have a TS55, great for breaking down full sheets, but not so great for small stuff.

Each saw has its own specific uses. I'd rather have three tools too many than to be short one.

 

[semenza]

@Seth.  Okay.  I don't mind the idea of having both.  Can you tell me what might be better for the Track Saw and what might be better for the table saw?  Also, any suggestions on the minimum sort of table saw that I can get by with?  I had a small portable Skilsaw and it was slow and had no power so I know I need slightly bigger/more powerful but beyond that I don't know.  Please - any suggestions are welcome!

In general sheet goods with the track saw.  Small pieces and solid wood on the table saw. However, if you are going frameless, there will be less for the table saw. I really like the track saw for straight lining as well. I will note that at this time I do all of my work with a track saw. But a small table saw has been on my list for a while. Even though I have not been using one it is clear that it is better for some things.

What type of doors are you going to do?

Seth

 

[Birdhunter]

This is a Festool forum so you might expect to get track saw slanted responses. I enjoy using my TS55 on a track, but there is no way I would give up my Sawstop table saw. The two tools overlap for some applications, but there are many jobs for which each excels and the other does not. For me, both is far far better than either.

 

[antss]

Some good advise dispensed so far but............

You didn't say whether you're looking to construct face frame cabinets or euro construction . 

That'd make a big difference for me as to whether a tablesaw would be warranted. Inset doors would also make a another big difference.  Tell your friend lots of shops make thousands of cabinets per day all without a tables saw.    CNC  And plenty of them are made without dados too.  Dado is just joint that wastes a lot of material and tooling. 

Are you planning on making the doors too ?  Slab doors or cope and stick ?
Do you have a router table for your 1400 ?  Gonna be difficult to make doors with out one with a sled.
Maybe you're outsourcing the doors ?

Did you consider outsourcing the casework too ?

If you're making euro cabs, it could easily be done without a tablesaw.  Just get a set of parallel guides for your ts55 and an LR32 for the of1400 to drill the system holes and bore for the door hinges. The included stop blocks with those sets act just like the rip fence on tablesaw.  Taking the tool to the work instead of the work to the tool is the only difference at the core.

If making 5 piece doors out of hardwood I'd really want a jointer and a planer too, but they were made for centuries with only handtools.

 

[semenza]

Thanks to everyone for their feedback, particulary Dick.  As a newb, I need the encouragement to do it differently.  The thought of buying one more (expensive, bulky and possibly dangerous) tool really made me think that I was getting in over my head!  I appreciate all of the input! 

Oh and I'm not doing face frame - I'm also the household cook and want to maximize cabinet space as much as possible

No face frame.

Seth

 

[antss]

"No face frame."

Then the parallel guides and lr32 could easily do the job.

Look at Confirmat screws while you're at it.

 

[Hud]

I rebuilt two cabinets last summer soley with my Festool equipment and it made a believer of me.  It was the first time that the case was square with out coaxing with a clamp and using the case to set the parrelel guides to cut the cabinet back exact to size.  This was another first.  I was totally impressed with the way the sytsem worked.  I used Track Saw, CT 26, 125 ETS EC sander

 

[Arvid]

mafell erika. with the sliding table. Amazing how much can be accomplished with this tool. ripping, cross cutting sheet goods after rips. with the miter gauge you can trim out an entire house.
then the mafell duel doweler for line boring. it drills two holes at a time on the 32mm system with their special rail

 

[antss]

???  erika is just a fancy table saw .