Why do so many MFT users ditch the Festool fence system?

[MakingDust]

Brand new member here but owner of several Festool tool, including the MFt3.

I was watching several youtube videos regarding the MFT and I couldn't help but notice how many of these youtube woodworkers have moved away from the festool fence & protractor system. Why??? All the static fences on the market are just that...static. the festool fence/protractor allow you to fine tune like no other.

What am I missing here?

I understand replacing the track hinge as it's not the best on the market. The dashboard hinge looks amazing. TSO makes improvement parts for the festool rail hinge.

BUT...... why do people go to the TSO, Benchdogs, or UJK static fence???

 

[ChuckM]

One of the reasons (not necessarily the most important one) is the power of social media and influence of marketing. I know a couple of mft owners who have used theirs for projects after projects with the original Festool equipment.

I've used my DF500 for a decade and for countless projects with its original configuration. There're "countless" after-market accessories out there one can buy. Everyone's mileage is different.

 

[MakingDust]

Very true. I have an mft3 at my shop and i have a home made one at my home garage. They home one has an ABS plastic 3d printed rail hinge, a 2040 aluminum extrusion for a fence and i drilled the top out with the parf system . It's great for cross cuts but I miss the sometimes needed functionality of the festool fence/protractor. It's just made me often wonder why people move away from that fence and protractor. Maybe if your mft was pushed up against the wall and you need the extra space... Maybe??? Just trying to understand what I'm missing or maybe I'm not missing anything? ??

 

[mino]

Because there are better options around.

Do keep in mind the costs though. None of the "better options" come close to the cost of the MFT-included accessories. Even at the elevated spare parts prices.

I am sure Festool could make better accessories for the money the aftermarket folks charge ... but .. would even 30% of the MFT set customers pay for it? Unlikely.

Would it make sense benefit/cost for at least 10% of the MFT/set customers to have a higher end option? Yup, is why the aftermarket offerings are around..

The million dollar question: Are you one of those 10%? Well, only you can tell.

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Ah, probably the most important point:

There are many ways to skin a cat. Many of the aftermarket options are geared after specific niche use case whereas the Festool kit is trying to be as universal as possible. In other words, when you will know why you want a different accessory, then you will know it. May sound funny, but that is actually how this works with most things Festool.

Till then, stick to the Festool kit. There are very few situations where aftermarket stuff is flat out better. In most cases it is about the use case one has.

 

[Coen]

youtube woodworkers

What am I missing here?

Marketing nonsense. Most of these Youtubers don't even know half the features of the tools they discuss, so euh..

 

[woodferret]

Jut-out was my primary reason. When the protractor is in back position, it's bar needs to go out all the way back like a sliding miter saw. I don't make enough repeat precision angle cuts for it to be worth it, so I have the TSO mounted that lets me also put on and take off the track really quick. I already had it for PG work, so it wasn't much extra. The OEM equipment otherwise is perfectly fine and serviceable.

edit: you don't need the TSO replacement mounts. You can just stick the squares directly on the OEM mounts, FYI.

 

[MakingDust]

Woodferret,

Jutout was one of the things i thought about. Or if you move the fence /protractor inboard, then you lose cut capacity.

I was really trying to figure out if there's something I'm not seeing about the included fence. I've heard people talking about accuracy issues but I've not had that issue.

Thanks for the comments.

I saw Peter Millard's videos and he said he ditched the stock fence because of space. I know he's got many sponsors there in the UK but he truly is space limited. Watching his videos gives me claustrophobia. It looks like he's got a woodworking shop in a closet. Props to him for doing everything he does in such a small space though.

 

[WillettBarrel]

I started out with the Benchdogs fence. I've point ever made my MFTs, so never bought the Festool kit. Benchdogs offered a very stable setup with extra supports and scale markings.

I added the Festool protractor when I picked up a CMS. So, I picked up Benchdogs fence adapter for the protractor. Seemed like the best of both worlds.

That said, the adapter plate isn't designed with the rest of the system in mind. To disconnect the fence from the protractor, you need to uninstall half the adapter. It's not a complicated task, but a pretty annoying extra step every time you setup and stow your MFT. I asked Benchdogs if they could offer a work around, which might just be a slightly different machine screw. They said the adapter was designed for stationary setups. The MFT, and entire Festool system, is designed to be mobile, so why they didn't think frequent setting up and stowing would be a use case is a bit stunning. But also par for the course for Benchdogs: they're constantly putting out MK2 and MK3 versions of their gear because they go to market with subpar initial designs. I wouldn't mind that near as much if they supported their customers better with upgrades or implementing new feedback.

Eventually I picked up the stock MFT fence from the spare parts catalog. I probably use both equally now, just based on dimensions I'm cutting, how much hassle I want in setup/takedown, if I'm just doing repeat cuts or many different lengths, etc.

The trade offs are enough I still think it's good to have both fence systems handy. .... But don't see wasting my money on Benchdogs in the future.

 

[PaulMarcel]

I switched to using Qwas dogs and some simple alignment jigs. Ensuring I'm properly square takes less than a minute. My motivation, though, was that I don't do mitered cuts on the MFT very often, so the added cross-cut capacity was more than worth it. That it is easily calibrated and verified is definitely a bonus. In my case, I have the MFT-1080 which had less cross-cut capacity than the MFT-3 so you may not need to do anything there.
For angled cuts, I usually set them up differently than using the rather coarse protractor of the MFT-1080.

 

[Hawkeye0001]

99% of my cuts on the MFT are repeated rectangular shapes, i.e. the three things that are truly important to me are squareness, easy set up and repeatabilty. If you compare e.g. the Benchdogs fence to the stock MFT fence it is miles ahead. As long as your grid is accurate (which I know it is) there is never a question on whether your cuts are accurate; that can't be said about the Festool fence. Transport your MFT to a third floor appartment and set it up? You'll double check squareness. Bump into the rail hinge by accident? You'll find yourself double checking squareness. And so on.
The Benchdogs fence simply plops into the holes, aligns with the splinter strip and off you go. I've got some six or seven flag stops (by accident, didn't know some were already included, lol) that I pre-set for most of my cuts without ever measuring (thanks to the laser engraved scale) and knock out panel after panel. The optional waste-side fence is incredibly helpful with narrow panels, too. For the price Benchdogs charges their stuff is hard to beat and I'd buy them again in a heartbeat.

 

[peter halle]

Most of the time I use my MFT/3 (an important distinguisher from the original MFT) with the fence, but when I would transport my MFT I would often just use dogs and rails versus the fence for quick jobs. The popularity of dog usage with the MFT system can arguably be traced to Steve Adams (Qwas) who is a member here who was frustrated with the old fence system on the original MFT and decided to make something to utilize the CNC accuracy built into the already existing grid to make square cuts and also accurate 45 degree cuts. He began manufacturing those himself and offering them for sale to members here, eventually expanding his line and licensing the manufacture and distribution of his initial offerings to Bob Marino. Obviously there wasn't anything patentable with the idea of a round peg in a round hole basically, and there was opportunity, so others ran with it and starting enhancing the types and features offered. The MFT/3 offered improvements over the original MFTs and although there have been other work tables with holes on a grid, the increased availability of CNC services has almost made the abbreviation MFT a generic description. All good in my eyes.

I admit that I haven't paid that much attention to the various other fence systems out there because the Festool fence works fine for me, but one thing that the fence system offered with the MFT offers is indexing NOT BASED on the accuracy of the hole placement. Even to this day, with all the popularity of the dogs out there, Festool does not market anything for the MFT based on the holes other than for clamping or holding purposes. There is no guarantee on the accuracy of the holes, the pattern of the holes, or the placement of the holes in the worktop in reference to the side aluminum extrusions.

Peter

 

[mino]

... As long as your grid is accurate (which I know it is) ...

Yup. It is good you know your grid is accurate and that works wonders with tooling setup on top of that. Though it needs to be said that basing any cut station on dog holes accuracy has its own - different - limitations than the Festool's calibration-heavy approach.

@OP
This is actually the core of the topic ref how the MFT concept grew well beyond what Festool has envisioned 30 years back when they came with the CNC 96/20 top design.

The thing is that the original Festool MFT series top holes are accurate by accident, due to the way they are made, NOT by design. As such, none of the Festool accessories rely on the hole pattern being accurate.

In turn, not presuming hole or frame accuracy necessitates calibration after every new setup. That is part for the course in not relying on the dog hole pattern as the geometry source.

In a way this is similar to the rail connectors or the rail squares state of affairs.
The Makita rail connectors are the most accurate, but require calibration using a reference edge. The various self-aligning solutions can never be as accurate, but are accurate-enough for most and more practical so people swear by them.
The FS/WA versus the GRS 16(aka FS/WA 90°) game is similar. The GRS 16 + rail assembly is mostly accurate-enough, though it can never be as reliably square as the FS/WA + rail assembly when a proper reference square is used for its calibration.
Etc.

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Coming back to the original concern:
Stick to the MFT/3 setup, learn to understand it, both its limitations /potentially more setup time/ and its strengths (flexibility, the almost unlimited ability to calibrate-out errors).

If you have an itch to spend more money, get a big reference square before messing with tuning the fences and such. The TSO MTR-18 style stuff, or some big DIN class 1 or class 0 engineer's square if you are based in Europe. For a starting woodworker, having a reliable square reference is way, way more important than the speed/efficiency of a particular cut you make.

It is relatively easy to tune a workflow to available tools if a reference is at hand to know when it is setup "right". Without a known-good reference on hand, even some very good tooling can be a hit/miss to work with and a PITA to diagnose issues.

 

[MakingDust]

Thanks mino. That's one thing everyone takes for granted..... That the dog holes are perfect. Wear, tear and use are going to loosen up the holes over time. That's where it seems the stock fence has an advantage. It's adjustable. And like you said, you always need to start with a reference square for any setup.

I definitely see the speed and portability advantage to using a fence attached to your dog holes. As long as everything is square enough to your liking, a dog hole fence will be super fast and repeatable to setup and take down.