Why don't you participate in contests? Yes, YOU!

[cje]

I like the forum a lot, and you do great work Shane. Thank you very much for that.

I think a reason more people don't participate is that they are reluctant to put their work on display because they either don't think it is good enough or they don't want to subject themselves to the criticism that sometimes arises from other members.  Such as why did you use maple, I would have used oak or why did you use that molding, I would have used this molding.

I agree, it takes some courage to put oneself in the limelight of critique. I think FOG is one of the most friendly stages one can do this: the spirit is to help and to learn from each other. Maple/oak discussions, or molding1 vs. molding2 can be taken as critique easily. It is difficult to read those questions/remarks not as an attack, because it's the result of one's own creative process that has been presented. However, no matter how experienced someone is, the transition of a problem to a solution is a complete different process than the observation f a problem and the solution that someone found. Even a rookie could easily come up with a better, or at least another solution, just because he observes the end-result, and the only thing he would have to do is think of an alternative. It took me quite a while to learn this WRT my own trade, and accept suggestions/remarks/critisism regarding my work. Knowing the difference between creating and judging a solution made this alot easier. 

Another reason may be, as David Baker stated, that the odds of winning are small, so why bother.

IMHO that's against the culture of the FOG: Sharing ideas, helping each other. That's why bother, to return something to the group in return for the help one might have gotten.

As stated in a previous post, some products have been reviewed so many times, as a user I feel that anything I say has already been said.

Reviewing a tool in public is not different from putting the results of a project in public. If one suffers from perfectionism, it is hard to write a review that is 'good enough'. Did I cover all pro's and cons, are my opinions fair?

Maybe a contest could take the approach of
- 'What was the most challenging task you completed using tool XYZ'?
For the less courageous writers (not everyone in the construction profession (or hobby) is a good writer) there could be an outline like:
- What were the considerations to choose this tool for the project
- If not with this tool, how would you have done the project (if at all)
- What were the shortcomings of the tool in the project
- What jigs/accessories did you create/use
- What did you learn, what would you pass on to the reader. (tips, tricks, do's and dont's)

An outline makes it easier to compare the entries, and to compile an 'ultimate review' with jigs, do's/don't and howto's.

Just my 2 cents.

Best, CJ'60

 

[Jesse Cloud]

Who me?  I don't participate in contests because I'm retired and don't have to compete any more. [big grin]

Add my kudos to all those who have already said what a great job you are doing.  In my opinion, this forum is a jewel and it just keeps getting better.

I wonder if some folks don't enter the contests because they are overwhelmed by some of the incredibly good work shown on the forum.  Or the hobbiest think it would be foolish to compete with the pros.  A couple of ways to approach that:

Have a contest just for beginners, maybe another for intermediate, another for pros.

Maybe Shawn and Peter (or volunteers) could sort through postings in the member projects area each month and select (with permission of the original poster) a few as finalists, have members vote on the winner.

Same as above, but look for posts with lots of hits and select finalists for "most useful post of the month" or something like that...

Or how about asking members to nominate dealers or others in the Festool world for "best customer service" award, citing examples of the excellent service.

 

[AlexThePalex]

I didn't participate in any contest because I haven't seen any contests to participate in.

First off, most contests are closed to people outside America. Second, I don't have a MFK700.

Third, there was one contest open to people from everywhere, but even though it was called a 'contest' it was not a contest, it was a lottery. And I don't do lotteries.

At first I was very excited about that 'contest' and went on preparing material for reviews to the standards and in the fashion I was taught at college. I had quite a number of Festools by now and experience with them so thought I should have something useful to bring to the table. So I started to write drafts for a review of the Deltex, the DS400 and the Rotex 150. I have 4 of the small DS/DTS/RTS/ETS sanders and started to write an article facing them off. I really thought that would have been a useful article for this site since people often asks questions comparing them with each other. I started on a review of the CS70 and I knew this one was going to be huge. There's a lot of things to tell about that machine. Lots of parts that move from left to right, top to bottom and front to back. Lots of things to put on it and lots of things to take off. Lots of pics to be taken and lots of things to explain about those pics.

After working on my drafts for a while I started to realise what kind of work this would take. I most certainly felt obliged to follow the standard set here on this board by some profound members and not just sit down for 30 minutes and pull out a review. After putting a good 4 hours in each of my DX90, Ro150 and DS400 drafts I started to realise this would become very time consuming. And by that time other contributions started to show up and I slowly but surely started to realise where this 'contest' was going to. I realised that if I wanted to make a review of my CS70 and make it worth something I had to put in a good 16 to 20 hours of work. I realised that my review would be just as much worth as a review of a guide rail or a clamp that took 15 minutes to write. That really put me off. I started to realise that quantity was more important than quality. I realised I'd have more chance winning the Rotex by writing a couple of reviews about my BHS65 bit holder, the right angle chuck and a sheet of 80 grit Cristal paper instead of putting in 20 hours of work on my CS70 review.  

So that's when I decided not to participate.

PS. Some people have complained here about the prize staying in North America. That's not a North American thing, that's how lotteries work. Both winners of the review 'contest' put in most reviews so they had the biggest chance of being drawn in the lottery. That's not a North American thing, that's just maths. I just wished it were a real contest instead of a lottery.

 

[DavidCBaker]

Another reason may be, as David Baker stated, that the odds of winning are small, so why bother.

IMHO that's against the culture of the FOG: Sharing ideas, helping each other. That's why bother, to return something to the group in return for the help one might have gotten.

True, but there are MANY ways to give back to the forum besides participating in contests. I try to do that by welcoming new members and by writing up projects that might inspire/help people. I'd be pretty hesitant to say someone's not helpful just because they elect to not participate.

 

[GPowers]

I agree, it takes some courage to put oneself in the limelight of critique.

You bet. Doing the reviews was a very hair raising experience. And I do not have much hair left. Especially since most, if not all of us in the review contest, waited until the last week to do the reviews.

 

[John Stevens]

I don't like the "get something for nothing" mentality.  I don't like it when I see it in myself or others.  I dislike it so much, I don't even check out the contest-related threads.

Regards,

John

 

[Chris Hughes]

I always thought they were fixed. [poke]  But seriously, since Fuller got my drill in the last contest I participated in, I've lost all my confidence and my wife left me.  Thanks Fuller!!!

 

[nickao]

I don't like the "get something for nothing" mentality.  I don't like it when I see it in myself or others.  I dislike it so much, I don't even check out the contest-related threads.

Regards,

John

For the contest people actually get nothing for something(they invest time, effort and materials in the project or review) most of the time. Only the winner gets something and its not for nothing(projects and reviews take massive work!), so I am lost to what your point is. DO you just think contests are people trying to get something for free, because that is not the case at all here.

I don't really understand can you elaborate?

 

[WarnerConstCo.]

Uh let's see......

A:  I am not really a worker of the wood (well the old lady may say otherwise).

B:  I don't really have the extra time.

C:  I really don't care that much about the contests.  Sorry, it is the truth.

D:  I find it more gratifying to just buy what ever is being given away, that way I win every time. [big grin]

 

[chrisrosenb]

I always thought they were fixed. [poke]  But seriously, since Fuller got my drill in the last contest I participated in, I've lost all my confidence and my wife left me.  Thanks Fuller!!!

Man Chris, you hold a grudge a long time. [scared] ;D

I just do not care for contests.

 

[Nigel]

I didn't participate in any contest because I haven't seen any contests to participate in.

First off, most contests are closed to people outside America. Second, I don't have a MFK700.

Third, there was one contest open to people from everywhere, but even though it was called a 'contest' it was not a contest, it was a lottery. And I don't do lotteries.

At first I was very excited about that 'contest' and went on preparing material for reviews to the standards and in the fashion I was taught at college. I had quite a number of Festools by now and experience with them so thought I should have something useful to bring to the table. So I started to write drafts for a review of the Deltex, the DS400 and the Rotex 150. I have 4 of the small DS/DTS/RTS/ETS sanders and started to write an article facing them off. I really thought that would have been a useful article for this site since people often asks questions comparing them with each other. I started on a review of the CS70 and I knew this one was going to be huge. There's a lot of things to tell about that machine. Lots of parts that move from left to right, top to bottom and front to back. Lots of things to put on it and lots of things to take off. Lots of pics to be taken and lots of things to explain about those pics.

After working on my drafts for a while I started to realise what kind of work this would take. I most certainly felt obliged to follow the standard set here on this board by some profound members and not just sit down for 30 minutes and pull out a review. After putting a good 4 hours in each of my DX90, Ro150 and DS400 drafts I started to realise this would become very time consuming. And by that time other contributions started to show up and I slowly but surely started to realise where this 'contest' was going to. I realised that if I wanted to make a review of my CS70 and make it worth something I had to put in a good 16 to 20 hours of work. I realised that my review would be just as much worth as a review of a guide rail or a clamp that took 15 minutes to write. That really put me off. I started to realise that quantity was more important than quality. I realised I'd have more chance winning the Rotex by writing a couple of reviews about my BHS65 bit holder, the right angle chuck and a sheet of 80 grit Cristal paper instead of putting in 20 hours of work on my CS70 review.  

So that's when I decided not to participate.

PS. Some people have complained here about the prize staying in North America. That's not a North American thing, that's how lotteries work. Both winners of the review 'contest' put in most reviews so they had the biggest chance of being drawn in the lottery. That's not a North American thing, that's just maths. I just wished it were a real contest instead of a lottery.

    Alex,

          Do you still intend to post your CS 70 review regardless of contests or lotteries?

              Nigel.

 

[Alaska Ranger]

Cuz everyone else is smarter'n me....

 

[nickao]

Most all the contests here are lottery, a few years ago there were a few contests where certain people voted, I didn't like that either. I like the open vote where everyone can vote, but it also has its problems.

If it is not a lottery someone that is inexperienced has no chance.

If it is based on one certain Festool people may not have that tool.

I don't participate because of the time, plus its totally unfair. I do this for a living and how can someone that does something else 60 hours a week hope to compete, with me in the shop 60 - 80 hours a week. Heck, I sleep next to my shop. I don't like where pros can win either that just makes no sense. Plus, I can not make up projects to to enter I have to make money with my shop time, period. And it is not right entering anything I am paid to do, I just will not change my mind on that and it shouldn't be allowed at all from anyone when the lottery format is not in play.

Reviews are another problem area, some can barely type, others can't download well or use a computer except to turn it on.

Mixing up the formats is probably best because of these things. So the lottery format should stay for some of the contests.

 

[cje]

Another reason may be, as David Baker stated, that the odds of winning are small, so why bother.

IMHO that's against the culture of the FOG: Sharing ideas, helping each other. That's why bother, to return something to the group in return for the help one might have gotten.

True, but there are MANY ways to give back to the forum besides participating in contests. I try to do that by welcoming new members and by writing up projects that might inspire/help people. I'd be pretty hesitant to say someone's not helpful just because they elect to not participate.

David, I didn't say you weren't helpful. If I instultedoffended you, if you understood it that way, my sincere apologies. I admire what you are creating with such few experience in woodworking. Without disqualifying your skills, I think your achievements so far are a fantastic testimony for the quality of Festool. 'Good tools are half the work', is a dutch proverb.

I chose to quote Neill because he came up with the 'why bother'. That's what struck me.

I see the contests Shane launches as a way to inspire people to share ideas on a particular subject. Some contests are more succesful than others. I'm a 'junior' member here, and don't know the contest history of the FOG. Maybe Shane is searching for the right format, at least that's how I 'read' the contest history I know of. That searching process takes some trial and error, there is a wide variety of interest, skill level, financial power (to acquire Festools), and it is not an easy task to create something that appeals to all (or just many) members. Just participating a contest because of the prize is probably not worth it for most of the participants, if they compare the value of the prize to the hourly rate of their profession multiplied by the time they have to invest. Alex's answer illustrates that perfectly well.

 

[image132]

Uh let's see......

A:  I am not really a worker of the wood (well the old lady may say otherwise).

B:  I don't really have the extra time.

C:  I really don't care that much about the contests.  Sorry, it is the truth.

D:  I find it more gratifying to just buy what ever is being given away, that way I win every time. [big grin]

I've noticed some others saying similar. Ouch Shane, this is a harsh crowd to cater to.

Personally I think you have done great with your competitions. Maybe some more internationals but I understand that not every single one can be so I'm waiting for the next. As for the MFK700, I don't own one. I'd be happy to contribute if you would feel like sending me one.  [big grin]

 

[peter halle]

Mention has been made about the odds of winning.  The FOG for Charity contest only had 6 entrants competing for 3 prizes.  You can't get much better odds than that.  And that idea was one of the most popular in the thread about contest ideas.  That contest was structured so that it was not a contest of woodworking skill - rather it was a contest regarding thought, effort, and intent.  The selection of a winner was made in blind judging - the judges had no idea who submitted which entry.

 

[PeterK]

Chris R--
Having met you and Chris H at the router class in April, I can attest to Chris H holding a grudge!! I heard about the contest for 2 solid days. Trust me - he will be complaining for the rest of his life!!    [laughing]
Apparently - that was no contest - it was a COMPETITION!!!
There needs to be a rematch.
Just poking fun at you two picking on each other.

 

[lambeater]

Shane you need more location specific contests to even up the odds.
Your next contest should be for a Kapex and only be open to Kiwi's living in Kamloops, British Columbia, Canada!!!  [laughing] [laughing] [laughing]

Lambeater

 

[bonesbr549]

Good intentions!    I'd say there have been numerous times I set out to do just that, however, time is precious.  The job consums a huge amount of time.  Sadly I do not work with wood as a profession.  The only real time I get to work with the passion is week-ends mostly.  I also have commitments with the family, so time to perform the task is limited.  Secondly, some of the contests were for reviews of tools I don't have (that list is getting smaller).  I guess the other reason is some folks have put a lot of effort and produced some real quality and I just figured I could not compete.  Now if it's a lottery type deal where if you submit you get a equal chance at the prize that would be different.  I have enjoyed all of the responses and found them valuable. 

  If I might make a suggestion,  have folks submit to you Shane, or a box or something, and at the end post them all with the winners announced however the method, judged or lottery type winner or winners.    JM2CW

 

[slb]

I have no issue with FOG running "contests" and I really appreciate the effort Shane puts in.  But I generally don't enter raffles, lotteries, etc. for the same reason I don't gamble:  my life experience is that I will not win, and I don't get enough excitement out of participation to make up for the disappointment.  You gamblers are welcome to bet however you want, it just isn't for me  ;D. 

Actual contests are a different story.  I'm proud of the work I do and willing to go head-to-head against other woodworkers.  However, the only time I entered a FOG contest (way before Shane's time) I felt that the judging was biased.  I got the feeling that the winner was selected based more on established participation in FOG (I was a newbie) than on the merit of the entry.  It left a sour taste that isn't Shane's fault, but makes me reluctant to bother again.

I also share some of the issues with entering a contest with something I was paid to make vs something another FOGer made on their own nickel.  It can take a lot of time to prepare an entry that has a chance of winning, and it seems unfair for me to get paid twice  [crying]!

Steve