Why the cross stop is worth its weight in gold
- Thread starter ChuckM
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ChuckM said:
I agree and I do own a Domino but the Mafell Duodoweler DDF40 gives it one hell of a run for its money. I've seen a few demos and it is very impressive. Its cross stop equivalent is way better engineered, the included stops makes it more versatile, the fence is more solid with a rack and pinion mechanism and it does 32mm shelf holes without the need for a jig or accessory. I hope I haven't started a war with this comment. [eek]
Crazyraceguy
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While the DDF40 might be comparable in the mid-range, I think the Domino outshines it when you get away from the 6mm-8mm sizes. Those tiny 4mm Dominos have saved me many times and I can't see the DDF40 doing that. Then when you go to the other extreme, it loses again.
As far as drilling the 32mm system holes, sure. If that is useful to you, it would save an extra thing to do that.
As far as drilling the 32mm system holes, sure. If that is useful to you, it would save an extra thing to do that.
squall_line
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I remember the first time someone showed me a duo-doweller, I was asking about the LR32 system. I was told "that system is junk, not worth the money, and you need to buy a Festool holey rail instead of a Makita rail, which is a lot cheaper. Just get a DDF-40 instead. Look, I can clamp this indexing rail on here and not have to move it, and I get perfect holes front side and back side of the upright without worrying about drift or offset from either end."
Hey, that seems cool, I thought to myself. I wonder what the catch is, other than having to buy a doweler?
"The long index device is about 700 bucks"
So, I mean, I get it if you're choosing between a Domino and a DDF-40 and also want to do 32mm system holes and don't want to use a router on top of it. In that case, I might be hard pressed to choose between the two. I'm interested in knock-down connectors, so the two flavors of Domino and/or Lamelleo Zeta P2 come to the forefront much more quickly.
Hey, that seems cool, I thought to myself. I wonder what the catch is, other than having to buy a doweler?
"The long index device is about 700 bucks"
So, I mean, I get it if you're choosing between a Domino and a DDF-40 and also want to do 32mm system holes and don't want to use a router on top of it. In that case, I might be hard pressed to choose between the two. I'm interested in knock-down connectors, so the two flavors of Domino and/or Lamelleo Zeta P2 come to the forefront much more quickly.
jbarr said:
No worries. The "war" is happening elsewhere:https://sawmillcreek.org/showthread...-Duo-Doweller-Domino-now-has-some-competition
;D
The Domino has one advantage in my book if the tenon is put in for strength and most probably none if only for alignment. I can custom cut a mortise to whatever the size fits it the material and make the tenon to suit using the Domino for joinery and strength as a conventional M&T joint is.
Mini Me said:
I really hope this doesn't turn into a debate about strength as that has happened on the site that Chuck mentioned and it has been discussed many times and it takes away from the features of both machines but I've seen a couple of tests comparing pocket holes, biscuits, dowels and dominos and provided you use the right number of dowels ( something like 4 dowels to 2 dominos ) appropriately spaced then in my experience dowels are just as good depending on the joint you are making and the width of the stock. This assumes you've applied the right amount of glue and the right size dowels or dominos. Its not a clear case of one is stronger than the other but more of which is more appropriate for the job and I'm positive that dowels cover most but not all.
I've just watched this video (from the 4:35 mark - ) and I'm still impressed with the Duo Dowler, in fact I've watched all of the Mafell tutorial videos. It does everything just as good and sometimes better than the domino. With dowel cutters ranging from 3mm to 12mm it is a very versatile machine.
I own both the 500 and the ddf40. As far as cabinet construction goes my Domino is for doing wood drawers only and hasnt been out of the systainer in a long time. On the other hand the DDF40 is always out. "IF" I could only have one it would be the DDF40 hands down. The best option is to have both. The DDF40 has a better overall range 3mm to 12mm and 40mm drilling depth. However the 32mm spacing could cause a problem if you had a space issue but thats a pretty rare if ever situation. Since it uses round dowels if you need more than 40mm depth its easy to just send a drill bit in deeper. Since the hole is already there and 40mm deep it easily keeps the drill bit centered and straight. I built some outdoor gates and used the ddf40 with 12mm/1/2" mahogany dowels about 6-8" long. While you can deepen the domino mortise its nowhere near as fast or easy as just one quick pass with a drill bit. Strictly speaking cabinets, dowels are much much cheaper than dominos too. That cost does add up. Plus with the DDF40 you once again get the benefit of round holes so I will typically use a combination of a dowel in one hole with confirmat screw in the other hole. The dowel aligns and the confirmat draws the joint tight while adding lots of strength. I dont put a screw in every pair of holes typically 1 screw in every other pair of 32mm holes. 5mm bits are perfect for this since thats a confirmat screw pilot hole size which also happens to match the 5mm holes for shelf pins etc. I will say 5mm dowels are harder to find but not impossible. Just dont expect to run down to your favorite supply house and grab some if you run out. The ddf40 is a harder to plunge and requires more precision from the operator which is one reason some dont like it as much. There is no slop setting. However once you devise a system to accurately place the dowels its very satisfying to put in the dowels and automatically have the corners and edges nice and flush. If anything, If anything, I feel like the ddf40 is "more" cabinet based and the df500 is more furniture based.
God bless these people who do this type of testing. However, I could have told anyone that anyone that puts enough weight in an upper cabinet to shear off 6-8 dowels has much bigger issues and could destroy just about anything. Chances are they would rip the dang thing off the wall first. Cabinets are not meant to be hurricane or tornado proof... Most production cabs are melamine so the panels will most likely fail looong before the fastener, dowel, or domino ever breaks or shears. The strength comparison for dowels vs dominos is a mute point either or is more than strong enough. Now if I was building some huge slab table the domino would be my preferred tenon. However a 1/2 dowel is pretty dang strong
Well said afish!
Here's another ......
but .... he has a vested interest and is 5 dowels vs 2 dominos a fair fight and did he use the right amount of glue in the right places etc tc? I don't know! I've also seen narrower stock tests like on a face frame with one domino vs 2 dowels and the domino wins. No surprise there but dowels are an adequate way to do face frames given that they're not under intense pressure like a chair
Anyway I think that talking about strength, which has been done ad nauseum, is not hugely relevant when comparing the two machines when there are many other factors to consider.
Have a look at how good their cross stop equivalent is and the precise indexing compared to the domino=114s
Here's another ......
but .... he has a vested interest and is 5 dowels vs 2 dominos a fair fight and did he use the right amount of glue in the right places etc tc? I don't know! I've also seen narrower stock tests like on a face frame with one domino vs 2 dowels and the domino wins. No surprise there but dowels are an adequate way to do face frames given that they're not under intense pressure like a chair
Anyway I think that talking about strength, which has been done ad nauseum, is not hugely relevant when comparing the two machines when there are many other factors to consider.
Have a look at how good their cross stop equivalent is and the precise indexing compared to the domino=114s
Crazyraceguy
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Lincoln said:
My point was that the holes are 32mm apart and you can't really do anything about that, except remove one. At that point, you are dealing with positioning again, plus the "no slop" factor. And the fact that it is just that, a hole, as in round. This does nothing to stop rotation, by itself. You always need at least two and if they are closer than 32mm, you have to plunge twice.
The DF500 can easily be used to put hardwood edging in a long shelf or countertop, using the cross-stop or even pencil marks.....straight out of the box.
You can accomplish this with the Duodowler, but it requires an add-on positioner rail. You would have to be extremely accurate with pencil marks and it would still involve some luck. With the Domino, it's a no-brainer. I would(and have) do this without even a test fit. Cut the mortices and glue it up.
THe ddf40 does come with a similar thing to the cross stop. Not exactly sure what it called (just looked it up its called side stop #sa320) its159 on the timberwolf website. I dont use it but it is included as part of the set at no additional cost, if anything its better built then the festool part but thats a different topic. Mafell does offer the "drilling template" which is extra for doing long runs and shelf pin holes.
I hear what you say about the festool getting into tighter spots but I cant think of any situation that would require such reinforcement but could not fit a pair of 32mm holes. Im not saying it doesnt exist but it has to be incredibly rare.
I still vote for both if you can get the CFO to approve it.
OOps I just saw the post by jbarr he included a video of the part I was talking about
I hear what you say about the festool getting into tighter spots but I cant think of any situation that would require such reinforcement but could not fit a pair of 32mm holes. Im not saying it doesnt exist but it has to be incredibly rare.
I still vote for both if you can get the CFO to approve it.
OOps I just saw the post by jbarr he included a video of the part I was talking about
Crazyraceguy
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afish said:
I have used the 4mm Dominos on the mitered corners of some pretty small mouldings. I initially thought that the 4mm were a bit of a joke, but they really do have quite a bit of value.
If I were going to do a "both" recommendation to anyone it would be DF550 and Lamello Zeta P2.
The down-fall of Dominos and dowels is that they cannot pull the joint together. The Clamex connectors will work along with either to pull the joint closed and act as a clamp for gluing or to be removable, but you do have to cross-drill a 5mm hole for the Allen key. The Tenso style actually snap together and you cannot tell that they are even in there. They will come back apart too, if not glued, but it is very difficult if there are too many of them.
I didn't know that the Mafell unit had those. All I have ever seen was the indexing bar.
I'm certainly not against the DDF40. If it works for you, fantastic, I just don't see it fitting in with what I do, already having a DF500. I have never priced one, but being Mafell, I can't imagine that it's a cheaper alternative?
Similarly priced in fact I've found some suppliers that have them cheaper but where I come from there is almost no Mafell presence (one authorized reseller who doesn't stock anything) so we have to contend with huge delivery charges. At this stage that has stopped me buying it and selling the Domino. I'm old fashion and like good local backup and support particularly when you spending this amount of money
Not trying to argue, just giving my opinion incase it helps anyone. I have no dog in the fight and make nothing either way. If there is anything I have learned there is no one size fits all. Everyone is free to choose either but should have accurate info so they can make a wise and informed decision.
I like the looks of the lamello but couldnt get past the cost of the consumables. Full disclosure I have never used one. Just by looking at the tenso connector I think I would be still using a few dowels or dominos for alignment and shear strength in combination with the tenso to pull the joint tight. However thats what the confirmat screw does for about $.02 compared to over a buck (I dont remember for sure but thought they were like 1.40 each feel free to correct me on that) for the tenso and even more for the connector with the cam, I thought those are like $4 (could be wrong). Im sure they have uses were they shine and worth the cost. But for day in day out banging cabinets together you will spend a small fortune in connectors. Same goes for the festool KD hardware. Hafele makes some KD hardware (ixconnect) that works with 8mm dowel holes the 60mm ones work pretty darn good are .40 cents each the smaller ones that push together pretty much suck. Dont waste your time on those. I dont use them on the regular but have tried them out. If you dont need worry about trying to hide hardware nothing beats the simplicity and cost of dowel and confirmat screw for "cabinets" Its when you have specialty type situation is when the others might be better.
I like the looks of the lamello but couldnt get past the cost of the consumables. Full disclosure I have never used one. Just by looking at the tenso connector I think I would be still using a few dowels or dominos for alignment and shear strength in combination with the tenso to pull the joint tight. However thats what the confirmat screw does for about $.02 compared to over a buck (I dont remember for sure but thought they were like 1.40 each feel free to correct me on that) for the tenso and even more for the connector with the cam, I thought those are like $4 (could be wrong). Im sure they have uses were they shine and worth the cost. But for day in day out banging cabinets together you will spend a small fortune in connectors. Same goes for the festool KD hardware. Hafele makes some KD hardware (ixconnect) that works with 8mm dowel holes the 60mm ones work pretty darn good are .40 cents each the smaller ones that push together pretty much suck. Dont waste your time on those. I dont use them on the regular but have tried them out. If you dont need worry about trying to hide hardware nothing beats the simplicity and cost of dowel and confirmat screw for "cabinets" Its when you have specialty type situation is when the others might be better.
